Talk:Mongol invasions of Vietnam
|This article is of interest to the following WikiProjects:|
This article was written with full of nationalism. The Mongols were defeated by the Tran at every battle?. Let's not forget the history. We are living in a globalized world. --Enerelt (talk) 14:17, 8 April 2009 (UTC)
--::Yes, the historical fact is that the Mongol invaders were defeated militarily multiple times and forced to withdraw. Were it not so, they would have absorbed Dai Viet and Champa into their empire.
serious neutrality problems in the article
1) This article is written from an exclusively (and absurdly) Vietnamese ultra-nationalist point of view. It rewrites history to make Vietnamese defeats into "strategic victories". The article needs to be rewritten from an objective and neutral point of view. It needs to incorporate non-vietnamese views of the war. 2) The Kingdom of Champa has no place being discussed in an article called "Mongol invasions of Vietnam". Champa is not Vietnam. It has its own history. In my opinion, either the title of the article should be changed or the wars involving Champa should be relocated into a seperate article. 3) The article needs to objectively evaluate the wars. At present it claims that somehow both sides won the wars. It somehow wants to claim that the Vietnamese side won every battle and the war but ended up paying tribute at the end to the Mongols. This is simply not acceptable. 220.127.116.11 (talk) 01:44, 1 July 2009 (UTC)
--The edits by both of the above editors is revisionistic, apparently intended to put a positive spin on Mongol military defeats (the ultimate outcomes). The titular tributary relationship between the states of Dai Viet and Champa towards the Mongols, in which both the Viet and Cham kings refused to travel to Dadu to pay homage to the khan (now that would have been a sign of true vassalage), was more akin to pragmatically paying off the neighborhood mafioso to avoid the human and material costs of endless wars.Brisim (talk) 19:37, 7 November 2009 (UTC)
--I completely agree with the above statement. Although the user Enerelt keeps saying that a neutral view is needed, I think the way he/she revised the page is not neutral at all. I noticed that he/she simply undid (without providing any reason) contributions from others, of which there are some with concerete evidences and (IMO) far more neutral than his text, to the page. The fact that he mistakenly gave "Đại Việt" the name "Bai Viet" is also hardly acceptable from the historical point of view. His/her modification gives me an impression that he/she intentionally tries to hide the military defeats of the Mongols to create an image of an invincible empire. Also, please note that the after-war tributary relationship between Vietnam and the Yuan dynasty does not necessarily mean a victory of the Mongol over Vietnam. Since its foundation, Vietnam virtually always paid tribute to China to avoid endless wars with her much larger neighbour. They also did that after every time China unsuccessfully invaded Vietnam and were forced to retreat to avoid further conflicts. So in my point of view gaining tributary relationship with Vietnam can hardly be considered a significant achievement by the Mongols but a regular act by the Vietnamese to avoid further wars. (Classicalmania (talk) 14:37, 5 August 2009 (UTC)).
--@Enerelt: You can keep undoing the contributions of others, but people will keep correcting the page according to historical facts. If you do not agree to any of their views, please clearly state yours and provide concrete references as evidence to support your view. If you want to demonstrate that the Tran dynasty did not defeat the Mongols in military battles, please provide evidence to support your statement. Thanks. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Classicalmania (talk • contribs) 14:43, 5 August 2009 (UTC)
- Finally, they became vassals of them. That's true.--Enerelt (talk) 13:50, 2 September 2009 (UTC)
I agree that the article is heavily biased, for an example take this sentence " Because there were some Vietnamese who wanted peace with the Mongols, the other Viet faction which wanted war devised a clever scheme which wiped out all desire for any peace with the Mongols by having the Mongols commit mass murder." First of all to remain neutrality remove the words "clever scheme" and replace them with strategy, then reword Mongols commit mass murder, this article is so heavily biased towards Vietnam it's like I'm reading propaganda. also the sentence " Mongol column under Uriyankhadai" should use the Mongol's army units (such as te— Preceding unsigned18.104.22.168 (talk) 12:33, 4 March 2013 (UTC)
We must respect the true history
Don't use the word Annam in this article because the name of the Kingdom that time is Đại Việt (Great Viet) and this time is Viet Nam. And nobody can deny the vietnamese victories, because the China, the Korea finally were merged to the Mongol Empire but the Đại Việt. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 22.214.171.124 (talk) 22:20, 27 June 2013 (UTC)
Death of Sogetu
This article provides two different occasions for the death of Sogetu : during the second Mongol invasion " The Cham were in hot pursuit of Sogetu, however, and managed to kill Sogetu and defeat his army while it was moving north", and during the third invasion : "Caught between the Champa and Đại Việt, Sogetu lost his life". As the first seems to be drawn from a document, i would be inclined to keep it, but i'm not knowledgeable enough to settle the issue. Can someone please correct ? --Tehem (talk) 07:29, 6 October 2013 (UTC)