Talk:Mongol siege of Kaifeng

Something about the Jin capital...

Great job on the article so far! After reading this account of the siege of Kaifeng, I found two things missing, a minor one and a fairly important one.

• Kaifeng at the time was not called Kaifeng but Bian 卞 or Daliang 大梁 (depending on the sources consulted). Kaifeng was the name of the city when it was the Northern Song capital. Even if Kaifeng is more convenient and is the name used in most secondary studies, the name of the city in Jin times probably deserves mention somewhere.
• At the time of the siege, Bian had just become the Jin main capital. Before that, Bian had only been the Jin Southern Capital, but Mongol attacks on their Central Capital (near today's Beijing) forced the Jin to move their government from there to Bian in 1214. From 1214 to 1232, the Jin empire only "consisted of a province-sized remnant in the central Yellow River basin," says Mote (1999), p. 247. These events are very important aspects of the background to the siege of Kaifeng!

There may be other things missing, but that's all I can come up with right now. Keep up the good work! Madalibi (talk) 06:45, 16 December 2013 (UTC)

Franke brought up Bian on page 263 of the CH, but I completely forgot to include it. Thank you reminding me. And yes, a large chunk of the history of the Mongol–Jin Wars is missing from the Background, everything from 1211 to 1232. I completely skipped over the Battle of Zhongdu, or Central Capital, one of the most important battles in the war. And not just that, there's also the death of Genghis Khan, the war with Western Xia and the Song, the rebellion by Yelu Liuge, and the rebellion by Yang Anguo. I'll get to it, eventually!--Khanate General ☪ talk ^{project mongol conquests} 07:10, 16 December 2013 (UTC)

Ok, I see that you're in perfect control of this! Great work again! Cheers, Madalibi (talk) 07:17, 16 December 2013 (UTC)

IMO, this should also be stated in the lede someplace. 50.111.33.214 (talk) 11:17, 29 May 2021 (UTC)

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Mongol siege of Kaifeng/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Curly Turkey (talk · contribs) 21:57, 20 December 2013 (UTC)

I'll do this review. Curly Turkey (gobble) 21:57, 20 December 2013 (UTC)

Not everything below is strictly required; some of it is just my recommendations. Feel free to disagree.

Prose

• There's a lot of the passive voice that I think would read better in the active voice ("Western Xia was subjugated by the Mongols in 1210."; "The Mongols returned the next year and Zhongdu, the capital of the Jin, was besieged in 1213"; etc)
  • Now fixed.--Khanate General ☪ talk ^{project mongol conquests} 13:55, 21 December 2013 (UTC)
• The Mongols had united, under his leadership, : I don't think the comma after "united" serves a purpose
  • Now fixed.--Khanate General ☪ talk ^{project mongol conquests} 13:45, 21 December 2013 (UTC)
• the Jurchen Jin Dynasty controlled Manchuria and: link Manchuria?
  • Now fixed.--Khanate General ☪ talk ^{project mongol conquests} 13:45, 21 December 2013 (UTC)
• renounced their vassalage to the Jin: link Vassal state?
• ignoring the fortifications of major cities: does this mean they avoided the major cities because the cities were heavily fortified?
  • Yes.--Khanate General ☪ talk ^{project mongol conquests} 13:45, 21 December 2013 (UTC)
• the Jin emperor into paying tribute.: link Tribute?
  • Now fixed.--Khanate General ☪ talk ^{project mongol conquests} 13:45, 21 December 2013 (UTC)
• Meanwhile, the Jin had been inflicted by multiple revolts.:
  • Now fixed.--Khanate General ☪ talk ^{project mongol conquests} 13:45, 21 December 2013 (UTC)
• the leadership of Yelu Liuge: worth a redlink?
  • Now fixed.--Khanate General ☪ talk ^{project mongol conquests} 13:45, 21 December 2013 (UTC)
• Yelu was enthroned a puppet emperor: link to Puppet monarch?
• invasion of Central Asia: should "Central" be capitalized?
  • Yes. Central Asia is a proper noun.--Khanate General ☪ talk ^{project mongol conquests} 13:45, 21 December 2013 (UTC)
• so the Jin wanted to negotiate for peace, but was rebuffed.: "were rebuffed"?
  • American and British English have different rules for the subject-verb agreement of collective nouns: "Oxford is winning" in American English versus "Oxford are winning" in British English.
    • The American/British distinction holds for sports teams, rock groups, adn corporations, but not for ethnicities or nationalites. Think of it this way: does "The Japanese is very humble" mean "Japanese people are very humble", or "that Japanese guy is very humble"? The answer's the same whether you're American or British (or—ahem—Canadian). Curly Turkey (gobble) 21:19, 21 December 2013 (UTC)
      • The Jurchens are an ethnicity. The Jin is a political dynasty and a collective noun. The usage can be verified through Frederick Mote's book, the one cited in the article: The demise of the Jin was not brought about solely, or even principally, by such internal factors, page 223. The Jin was eliminated in 1234, page 476. The Southern Song was ruled by inconsequential emperors, page 321.--Khanate General ☪ talk ^{project mongol conquests} 22:33, 21 December 2013 (UTC)
        • If that's the case, then you'll want to throw a {{not a typo}} around it, or I can guarantee you somebody someday will "fix" it for you. Or better yet, reword it to avoid the (seeming) problem (e.g. "attempts by the Jin to sue for peace were rebuffed"). Curly Turkey (gobble) 23:05, 21 December 2013 (UTC)
          • Now done.--Khanate General ☪ talk ^{project mongol conquests} 00:16, 22 December 2013 (UTC)
• execution of loyalists to the emperor: "loyalists to the emperor" sounds weird to me. How about just "loyalists", or "those loyal to the emperor"?
  • Now fixed.--Khanate General ☪ talk ^{project mongol conquests} 13:45, 21 December 2013 (UTC)
• that the siege is "of some interest for the history of military technology": is there some reason this should be quoted and not paraphrased?
  • It's his own assessment of the battle. Opinions need to be quoted.--Khanate General ☪ talk ^{project mongol conquests} 13:45, 21 December 2013 (UTC)
    • Opinions need to be attributed, not necessarily quoted. Not that this will hold up passing GA (it's not incorrect), I just don't see anything particularly quoteworthy in the wording of the quote. Curly Turkey (gobble) 21:23, 21 December 2013 (UTC)
      • Now fixed. It's no longer quoted.--Khanate General ☪ talk ^{project mongol conquests} 22:42, 21 December 2013 (UTC)
• propelled by trebuchets: link trebuchet?
  • Now fixed.--Khanate General ☪ talk ^{project mongol conquests} 13:45, 21 December 2013 (UTC)
• bomb was launched in the air: "into", otherwise it could mean "launched while in the air"
  • Now fixed.--Khanate General ☪ talk ^{project mongol conquests} 13:45, 21 December 2013 (UTC)
• sparked a fire on the combustible grass: is this a special kind of grass, or are you just saying that grass is combustible?
  • Now fixed. Removed combustible.--Khanate General ☪ talk ^{project mongol conquests} 13:45, 21 December 2013 (UTC)
• which could burn a soldier to death, even if he survives the initial blast: "survived"
  • Now fixed.--Khanate General ☪ talk ^{project mongol conquests} 13:45, 21 December 2013 (UTC)
• attached with a tube of gunpowder: not "attached to"? Was the tube of gunpowder used to attach it?
  • Now fixed.--Khanate General ☪ talk ^{project mongol conquests} 13:45, 21 December 2013 (UTC)
• from the Jurchens before this point in time: either "this point" or "time" is redundant
  • Now fixed.--Khanate General ☪ talk ^{project mongol conquests} 13:45, 21 December 2013 (UTC)
• Who are Franke and Turnbull? Historians or something? Why should we care about their opinions?
  • Now fixed.--Khanate General ☪ talk ^{project mongol conquests} 13:45, 21 December 2013 (UTC)
• on the soldiers manning the Jurchen trebuchets: "manning" is one of those words many denizens of the 21st century dislike
  • Now fixed.--Khanate General ☪ talk ^{project mongol conquests} 13:45, 21 December 2013 (UTC)
• lasted for a total of less than two days: "for a total of" is redundant
  • Now fixed.--Khanate General ☪ talk ^{project mongol conquests} 13:45, 21 December 2013 (UTC)

Refs

• Everything is reffed, refs are well-formatted.

Source check

• I could only get access (through Google Books) to Holcombe and Turnbull. I noticed no issues there, and there was nothing in the text that made me suspicious. Curly Turkey (gobble) 05:27, 22 December 2013 (UTC)

Images

• Three images, all PD and on Commons, properly tagged.

–––Curly Turkey (gobble) 22:31, 20 December 2013 (UTC)

Thank you for the review.--Khanate General ☪ talk ^{project mongol conquests} 22:43, 21 December 2013 (UTC)

Pass. I'm satisfied that this article exceeds the requirements to become a Good Article. Curly Turkey (gobble) 05:28, 22 December 2013 (UTC)

Additional comments by another reviewer

Looking excellent once again! Let me (if I may) just add a few things that I think need slight clarification.

• In the Mongol siege of Kaifeng of 1232... This is the first sentence of the lede, yet the infobox and the text say that the siege lasted till 1233. Correct the lede accordingly?
  • Now fixed.--Khanate General ☪ talk ^{project mongol conquests} 13:18, 21 December 2013 (UTC)
• They may have also harbored a grudge against the Jin for assassinating Ambaghai, one of Genghis' predecessors, and for the Jin emperor Weishaowang's rude behavior to Genghis when he was still a Jurchen prince. The grammar makes it sound as if Genghis was a Jurchen prince: rephrase?
  • Now fixed. "He" has been replaced with "Weishaowang".--Khanate General ☪ talk ^{project mongol conquests} 13:18, 21 December 2013 (UTC)
• Yelü was enthroned a puppet emperor subordinate to the Mongols in 1213. Are you sure it's puppet emperor. If so, of what dynasty or state?
  • Now fixed. He was given the title "emperor" of the Liao Dynasty, but it was only a title. From Franke: He declared his allegiance to Chinggis Khan in 1212, quickly gained control of central and northern Manchuria, and was even allowed the title emperor of the Liao in 1213.--Khanate General ☪ talk ^{project mongol conquests} 13:18, 21 December 2013 (UTC)
• The Jurchens tried to make up for their territorial losses to the Mongols by invading the Song in 1217. Because this invasion is not mentioned in your wiki on the Song-Jin wars, could you reference that sentence?
  • It's in the article on the Song-Jin wars, but just briefly. As the Mongols expanded, the Jin suffered territorial losses and invaded the Song in 1217 to remedy their shrinking resources. It's from Franke, page 259.--Khanate General ☪ talk ^{project mongol conquests} 13:18, 21 December 2013 (UTC)
• An illness incapacitated Ögedei and Tolui, and they were forced to step down. "Forced to step down" seems to mean they abdicated. Use a different verb?
  • Now fixed.--Khanate General ☪ talk ^{project mongol conquests} 13:18, 21 December 2013 (UTC)
• Therefore the Mongol soldiers made cowhide shields to cover their approach trenches and men beneath the walls, and dug as it were niches. I don't understand this sentence. Are you sure the citation is correct?
  • It's a word for word quote of the translation from Turnbull. It can be verified by performing a web search for the quote. I'll check to see if there are any alternative translations by other historians.--Khanate General ☪ talk ^{project mongol conquests} 13:18, 21 December 2013 (UTC)
    • If it's a modern translation, to translator should be attributed, not just inline-cited—either following the quote, or in an endnote ("Translation by Turnbull"). Translations fall under copyright. Curly Turkey (gobble) 21:30, 21 December 2013 (UTC)
      • Now fixed.--Khanate General ☪ talk ^{project mongol conquests} 22:37, 21 December 2013 (UTC)
• As for image tags, I'm not completely sure, but shouldn't they have a US PD tag as well? The picture of Ogedei seems to have a faulty template. It says "PD-Art template without parameter"...
  • Now fixed. The tags are updated.--Khanate General ☪ talk ^{project mongol conquests} 13:24, 21 December 2013 (UTC)

———Madalibi (talk) 12:48, 21 December 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for the review.--Khanate General ☪ talk ^{project mongol conquests} 22:43, 21 December 2013 (UTC)