Talk:Monocotyledon

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Orders[edit]

On Liliopsida, the following list of orders was given:

As far as I can tell, the degree of splitting here is very much overkill, i.e. it is unnecessary for creation of monophyletic groups. The list of orders currently given is based on what I have seen in a number of different sources, but someone more familiar with botany should compare the two schemes and make notes.

What is the point of the name being Monocotyledon and stating it to be a "class" when science says it is not the correct designation. The name is old fashioned. The justification of the name is in taxonomy. It is either a correct name or it is not. Science says it is not. Hence it should be renamed and made a redirect. GerardM 18:03, 11 May 2004 (UTC)

The name is not old fashioned. It's the common name of the group in question, and we have a policy of using common names. It's also its name as a clade, i.e. one still used in the taxonomic literature. The group is named Liliopsida when treated as a class, because classes have to be named after a type genus. On the other hand, if the rank were changed, so would that name. Further, if it turned out Lilium were not a monocot, the name Liliopsida would ened up referring to an entirely different group. That's somewhat far fetched, but the same thing has happened with Magnolia: although it is a dicot, it probably belongs in a different class than the others.

In short: Liliopsida is the name of the class containing Lilium. At the moment, it happens to be the same as the monocotyledons, and it is even likely it will stay that way. But there's no reason to prefer that name, since the other name is perfectly valid in taxonomy and more common in the vernacular. -- Josh

The text of the Monocotyledon article includes the Angiosperm Phylogeny Group's most current classification scheme, which has 10 orders--Acorales, Alismatales, Asparagales, Dioscoreales, Liliales, Pandanales, Arecales, Commelinales, Poales, and Zingiberales, with two families not yet assigned an order, Petrosaviaceae and Dasypogonaceae. It is a reasonably parsimonious scheme, and is backed up by current phylogeny. I didn't, however, change the taxotable.
I didn't do so because there is a great deal of disagreement on plant taxonomy, and I am not an Angiosperm expert by any stretch of the imagination. This layperson's view is that the APG system seems like a reasonable attempt to develop a standard phylogeny. It also seems to me that Wikipedia ought to use the APG as a standard for organizing its pages on plant taxa, while noting the Cronquist and other important variations from the APG scheme in the relevant articles. What do others think?Tom Radulovich 04:05, 12 May 2004 (UTC)
I would think that is reasonable, IF we put something in the text that explains that the taxobox is based on Cronquist or some modification of Cronquist. That way the reader has a chance of understanding why there is disagreement - Marshman 04:13, 7 Sep 2004 (UTC)

APG II is the standard we have been using in wikipedia. To make this page more consistent with the others, in fact, we should have it in the taxobox and notable alternatives like Cronquist in the article. Josh 06:53, 7 Sep 2004 (UTC)

I agree with Josh, at the moment the same word represts differet taxonomic levels and it makes it very messy for someone tyring to put together a new article--nixie 03:07, 14 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Monocotyledones merge to here[edit]

I don't know enough about this or I'd do it myself. CambridgeBayWeather 07:38, 19 September 2005 (UTC)

Done - MPF 10:12, 19 September 2005 (UTC)
Note that is has not been merged, just deleted. Where it differed with this page the errors have been maintained - 20 Sep 2005
Note that there is also a separate monocots article that should be merged with this one. MrDarwin 14:29, 16 February 2006 (UTC)
Well, it took over a year to get around to it, but I've finally moved what little was not already redundant from the Monocots article to this one, and made the former into a redirect. Not only was the Monocots article redundant, the numerous links to the term "monocot" took users to an article that was extremely unhelpful. MrDarwin 16:58, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

better organization[edit]

you have got to have better organization. i mean instead of starting by monocots are plants blah blah blah, you might want to start with what is a monocot!! then you can discuss that there are certain no. of plants etc.

Seedling photograph[edit]

The photo comparing a monocot (grass) and dicot seedling purports to show the single cotyledon of a monocot seedling. In fact the "cotyledon" in the photograph is the first true leaf of the seedling, with the coleoptile barely visible below it. Neither of these is the cotyledon. MrDarwin 20:47, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

Infobox?[edit]

This article has no infobox, most species, genus etc do, I don't know all the correct info myself but would it be plausible and correct practice to add an infobox here? I read that grass is monocotyledon, in the grass article, but that page also has no infobox.

Carlwev 23:09, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

The infobox for grass is actually at Poaceae. The term "grass" is often used with a somewhat broader meaning than just the members of the grass family. I suppose you could put one in here, as it is a monophyletic group. I won't do it myself because of concerns about mixing taxonomic systems within the box. Check out Poaceae, though. KP Botany 23:24, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
I've taken a shot at an infobox (we'll see how long it lasts). This case is easier than most, in the sense that the different taxonomic systems agree on the group, they just differ on what to call it. Kingdon 16:31, 8 June 2007 (UTC)
Thanks. KP Botany 20:16, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

Descended from dicots?[edit]

I've met some statements in Russian web that Monos descended from Dicots. Is that true? If yes (not sure, I'm an amateur), maybe it should be mentioned. Best regards, --CopperKettle 09:11, 9 November 2009 (UTC)

It is true. The article says many things which (at least taken together) imply this (most directly, the cladogram showing their position in the Mesangiospermae). We address it more directly at Angiosperm. Because of this set of relationships the word "dicot" is one that many people would avoid, since it groups together all the angiosperms which aren't monocots (but which don't really have much to unify them). Kingdon (talk) 20:22, 10 November 2009 (UTC)

Monocotyledons or monocots (Greek language: Μονοκοτυλήδονο)[edit]

"Monocotyledons or monocots (Greek language: Μονοκοτυλήδονο)" Do we need the greek of Monocotyledon? I can't see that it adds any thing and is not monocot from the Latin? Hardyplants (talk) 06:38, 23 January 2010 (UTC)

No, and we don't need the Latin etymology either. That's better handled at Wikipedia. Note also that the addition was modern Greek, not Classical/Ancient Greek. --EncycloPetey (talk) 20:35, 23 January 2010 (UTC)

Is it correct that 'monocot' is a slang form of 'monocotyledon'? If so, then it seems to me unencyclopedic to be using 'monocot' freely throughout the article as if it was as correct as the fully spelled-out form (and I note that 'monocot' is also used freely throughout the rest of Wikipedia. MrDemeanour (talk) 08:55, 18 December 2011 (UTC)

No, I don't think that it's slang. "Dicot" and "monocot" are widely used by biologists. An advantage is that it doesn't draw so much attention to the original derivation based on the number of cotyledons; this isn't a defining feature of the modern use of "eudicot" and "monocot". (I don't think I've ever seen "eudicotyledon".) Peter coxhead (talk) 12:45, 18 December 2011 (UTC)

Picture Examples[edit]

I think the cross-sectional view of an onion bulb is a less obvious example of parallel veins than a top-down image of a leaf with parallel veins. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.194.194.155 (talk) 17:13, 31 October 2011 (UTC)

Original or plagiarized material?[edit]

The "Evolution" section seems to be sourced much differently than the rest of Wikipedia. I have no evidence that it is plagiarized, but I don't see why else it would be sourced like that. To anyone that does, thanks for looking into it. Lets keep Wikipedia free and legitimate for all. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.176.228.106 (talk) 05:05, 25 June 2012 (UTC)

The reason it is sourced differently is that it was translated from the Spanish Wikipedia article. --EncycloPetey (talk) 23:38, 26 June 2012 (UTC)

Deleted "Monocots" article[edit]

Is any of the following material from the recently deleted "Monocots" article useful to integrate into this article?

In plant taxonomy monocots (plural, not capitalised) is a monophyletic clade within the flowering plants or angiosperms. It is an unranked clade as defined by the Angiosperm Phylogeny Group in its 1998 paper to include ten monophyletic orders, the Acorales, Alismatales, Asparagales, Dioscoreales, Liliales, Pandanales, Arecales, Poales, Commelinales, and the Zingiberales. The name now includes these ten orders plus the Petrosaviales and an unplaced family, the Dasypogonaceae.[1][2]

Diagnostic characteristics or apomorphies of the monocot clade include sieve tube plastids that contain only proteinaceous (no starch) inclusions that are wedge shaped, vascular bundles in the stem arranged as an atactostele, and the lack of true wood formation. Most monocots have leaf veins that parallel each other, but some monocot clades have secondarily evolved reticulate venation, and almost all monocots have a single cotyledon.[3]

The taxa belonging to this clade of monocots are those plants known as "monocots" or "monocotyledons". This group has been given various names (each with their own internal taxononomy). Historically, the monocotyledons were named:


Within the monocots, the APG II system recognizes ten orders of monocots and two families not yet assigned to any order. A number of these are recognised as the clade "commelinids", the rest (a paraphyletic unit) is occasionally referred to as the "base monocots".

  • clade monocots :
  1. ^ Angiosperm Phylogeny Group (2009). "An update of the Angiosperm Phylogeny Group classification for the orders and families of flowering plants: APG III" (PDF). Botanical Journal of the Linnean Society 161 (2): 105–121. doi:10.1111/j.1095-8339.2009.00996.x. Retrieved 2013-06-26. 
  2. ^ http://www.mobot.org/MOBOT/research/APweb/
  3. ^ Plant Systematics By Michael G. Simpson
All the material except the paragraph that begins "Diagnostic characters ..." was either already in the Monocotyledon article or is out of date (e.g. the APG II system has been superseded by the APG III system), which is why there was no need for a separate article. The paragraph can usefully be added, but the article has a rather muddled order at present (in my view anyway) and this needs to be sorted first. I've been thinking about it and will do something if no-one else does. Peter coxhead (talk) 19:15, 17 November 2014 (UTC)
One problem is that great chunks of material at the end have been auto-translated from the Spanish Wikipedia, as far as I can tell (although this is not acknowledged anywhere) and are in very poor English as a result. Peter coxhead (talk) 19:26, 17 November 2014 (UTC)