Talk:Monte Cristo sandwich
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"Much of its popularity and mystique stems from being a featured menu item at Disneyland's Blue Bayou Restaurant." Huh? Do sandwiches have a mystique? Does anyone associate Disneyland with sandwiches? Drollison
Can someone please remove the chowhound reference? It links to a 404 and I don't know how to edit references. Thanks. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 220.127.116.11 (talk) 21:53, 11 December 2006 (UTC).
Putting sliced turkey or chicken into a Monte Cristo sandwich is a regional variation, NOT the original. As noted in the second reference at the bottom of the Wikipedia page, What's Cooking America, the history of the Monte Cristo goes back to the 1930s under another name and it was eaten in California throughout the 1950s, before Disneyland's restaurant featured it -- but it's still a French croque-monsieur (grilled ham and Swiss cheese) that is dipped in egg batter like French toast and fried. This is the base from which all regional variations deviate. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mrtraska (talk • contribs) 17:12, 14 January 2011 (UTC)
Yes Turkey, Chicken, or Ham
I disagree that one can say that the Monte Cristo is based on a Croque Monsieur (created c. 1910 in Paris); this cannot be born out by dates. The earliest American print awareness of a Croque Monsieur that I am know of dates from 1943. The Monte Cristo sandwich dates back to at least 1923, 20 years earlier.
To say that only ham can be used is misplaced enthusiasm perhaps. Recipes since at least the early 1950s have not only admitted the use of cold, sliced poultry (chicken or turkey), but encouraged it, as a way to use up leftovers, particularly after various high holidays. To dismiss those meats as just a "regional variation" would be odd, given that we have no defined, documented region of origin for the sandwich in the first place.
One may prefer turkey; one may prefer ham; one may prefer a combination of both: but whatever one's personal preferences, facts and common usage are what they are.
In any event, I won't engage in edit wars.
Monte Cristo vs. Monte Carlo (and the Turkey-vs.-Ham Question)
I wanted to open this question for Kintetsubuffalo and the group at large, because i'm not sure how Wikipedia's guidelines apply to this situation.
As near as i can tell from a quick Google search, there are definite inconsistencies on Monte Cristo recipes. Some include both ham and turkey, while some include only one of the two. Similarly, if one googles "monte carlo sandwich", one finds a similar set of recipes under that name. Some specify the Monte Carlo as the turkey variation of the ham-only Monte Cristo, while others seem to barely differentiate between the two.
While Wikipedia clearly states that articles should NOT be founded on original research, it also states that citable secondary sources (e.g. food magazines/websites and notable recipe books/websites) are acceptable sources. I cannot find a source that explicitly states the identicality or distinction of the two sandwiches, but in sum, several acceptable sources clearly complete the picture that both sandwiches are neither clearly defined nor clearly distinct from each other.
What the is proper course in this case? Do we cite all sources and then write the article to indicate the multiple versions of the sandwich attributed to both names? This would seem most appropriate to me, assuming that no single authoritative source can be found.
Before proceeding with such an edit, however, i wanted to solicit the feedback of others watching this article. Any recommendations here on how best to proceed in accordance with Wikipedia's guidelines?
Thanks to all for the willingness to discuss. Best,
Looking further, many of the sources already cited on the article differ on the inclusion of turkey or chicken, and at least one suggests that there is no single agreement on which is the definitive Monte Cristo. Most sources make mention of the sandwich's popularity being linked to the Blue Bayou restaurant in Disneyland, and it therefore may be relevant to note that the Monte Cristo on Blue Bayou's menu includes turkey as well as ham.
Again, given the available sources, i'd like to propose that the article be changed to first describe the sandwich as containing "cheese and some combination of sliced ham, turkey and/or chicken" or something similar. From there, i think it would be easy to cite references showing the different variations, as well as note if any seem to be a function of region or timeline. Furthermore, i think the additional moniker "Monte Carlo" should be mentioned as a confused synonym and/or a Monte Cristo variation, depending on available sources.
Anyone have any thoughts on this proposal? I'd ideally like to get feedback before trying a re-write. Thanks again,
Clearly i've been distracted for awhile. :) Having received no comments on this proposal after ~1.5 years, i will plan on making this edit. Last call for objections! Thanks,