Talk:Mormonism

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to: navigation, search

Diamond-caution.svg

This topic contains controversial issues, some of which have reached a consensus for approach and neutrality, and some of which may be disputed. Should you wish to make any substantial changes or additions;
  • Before making any such substantial changes, please carefully read the discussion-page dialogue.
  • During any such changes, please be careful to cite reputable sources supporting them, and when submitting your edit, please include an accurate and concise description in the "Edit summary" field-box.
  • After making any such changes, please also carefully describe the reason(s) for any such changes on the discussion-page.

(This message should only be placed on talk pages, please.)

          This article is of interest to the following WikiProjects:
WikiProject Christianity (Rated C-class, Top-importance)
WikiProject icon This article is within the scope of WikiProject Christianity, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Christianity on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.
C-Class article C  This article has been rated as C-Class on the project's quality scale.
 Top  This article has been rated as Top-importance on the project's importance scale.
 
WikiProject Latter Day Saint movement (Rated C-class, Top-importance)
WikiProject icon This article is within the scope of WikiProject Latter Day Saint movement, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Mormonism and the Latter Day Saint movement on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.
C-Class article C  This article has been rated as C-Class on the project's quality scale.
 Top  This article has been rated as Top-importance on the project's importance scale.
 
WikiProject Religion / New religious movements (Rated C-class, Top-importance)
WikiProject icon This article is within the scope of WikiProject Religion, a project to improve Wikipedia's articles on Religion-related subjects. Please participate by editing the article, and help us assess and improve articles to good and 1.0 standards, or visit the wikiproject page for more details.
C-Class article C  This article has been rated as C-Class on the project's quality scale.
 Top  This article has been rated as Top-importance on the project's importance scale.
Taskforce icon
This article is supported by New religious movements work group (marked as Top-importance).
 


Gold Plates?[edit]

What happened to the gold plates?? How could something so fundamental be forgotten about?

baden 41.74.221.96 (talk) 04:38, 24 October 2012 (UTC)

There has been some chatter about the plates. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Search?search=gold+plate&prefix=Talk%3AMormonism%2F&fulltext=Search&fulltext=Search If you have good Sources, you can enter the missing information yourself. You are welcome to do so. Sincerely, GeorgeLouis (talk) 05:45, 24 October 2012 (UTC)

How about summarizing the plates and linking to the Wikipedia article on "Golden Plates" as the source? Rjmail (talk) 18:55, 9 April 2013 (UTC)

I think this is a great idea, Rjmail. There should be some mention of the plates in this article.Dustinlull (talk) 19:27, 9 April 2013 (UTC)
Ok, I've added a brief mention to the article's history section. Rjmail (talk) 19:49, 9 April 2013 (UTC)

Mormonism is a historical fact[edit]

Now before you remove this comment; allow me to explain this. Mormonism is a historical fact, you can't argue that Christ died for our sins, or that Joseph Smith restored the gospel. It is historical fact, now people have freedom of agency and they have the choice to be ignorant and deny the true fact that Jesus was the Christ and that Joseph Smith was the first prophet since Jesus Christ.

You may ask "How do I know for a fact that Jesus was the Christ?" Answer- You have to pray to Heavenly Father, in the name of Jesus Christ amen, with a sincere heart and a desire to feel the holy spirit and you will receive an answer.

Mormonism is regarded as an opinion by most people; when it is a historical fact. Example- Tectonic Plates ( Pangea theory) is technically a theory, but there is nothing wrong with it. This is a good example of Mormonism. There is absolutely nothing wrong with the faith, church, or the doctrine. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Checkb4uwreck (talkcontribs)

You might want to read up on what a theory is before you throw around the phrase, "Only a theory." In the scientific sense it is an explanation for credible facts and evidence. You're using it the sense of a hypothesis (which is valid in our culture but misleading). Tectonic Plate Theory is an explanation for a huge amount of credible evidence and observable facts; moreover it is falsifiable. The strength of any theory is that it must be falsifiable, meaning there is a scenario in which, if certain facts and evidence are found to be true, the theory can indisputably be proven wrong. That may not sound impressive but a concept that is falsifiable is much more important than one that is only verifiable. The concept of God is verifiable; if he came down and showed himself and his power there would be little to disprove him. Conversely it is not falsifiable; according to the hypothesis or "belief" that God is real, one must simply have faith and believe with or without credible evidence. The lack of falsifiability is what makes God a hypothesis and Plate Tectonics a theory: If Plate Tectonics was wrong, it can be proven, it's validity is based on observable facts and evidence; if it is correct then a scenario in which facts and evidence prove it wrong simply will not ever happen. In science we do have to accept that any fact is only true while it's not being proven wrong, and that's okay; the quest for truth, insight and knowledge is more important than validating one's beliefs and hypotheses. 172.248.150.231 (talk) 00:35, 5 December 2013 (UTC)
Hi, nobody's going to remove the comment. The purpose of a "talk" or "discussion" page is for editors to try to work through their differences, so as long as that's happening we're good.

Personal beliefs on Wikipedia are a little tricky. You are convinced that Mormonism is true, while the next person is convinced that it's false and another religion is true, while the next person is convinced that all religions are a joke. Rather than having editors duke it out and whoever has the strongest opinoin wins, Wikipedia deals with the problem in two ways. First, we have a strict policy that articles should have a neutral point of view. In the case of religions, this means that it won't say that they are either true or false. (This goes for all religions, not just Mormonism.) Using your example above, it is unacceptable for Wikipedia to say "Jesus is the Christ." It's just not neutral. Wikipedia, however, can say "Christians believe that Jesus is the Christ, or Messiah."

Second, instead of relying on personal opinions, Wikipedia demands that any controversial claim be backed by a WP:reliable source, preferably a secondary, peer reviewed source written by someone who is an expert on the subject. For something like Mormonism, this means you'd have to back up your changes with citations to people like Richard Bushman, Jan Shipps, Arnold Mauss, or Matthew Bowman, who have spent years studying Mormonism and have written books on the subject.

Lastly, if you would like to be making changes to the article, or believe that something is inaccurate, it would be very helpful if you could say what precisely is the problem. Instead of "The article is wrong and biased" something like "The article is incorrect when it says '...'." ~Adjwilley (talk) 13:42, 10 December 2012 (UTC)

Combined Titles[edit]

I'm really confused why there are two articles. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (LDS for short) is the name of this church. There is no church called "Mormonism". That is a formerly derogatory term given to the LDS people that eventually became slang terminology for the church. Nowadays it is not insulting to be called a mormon. However, having two different articles causes confusion for non-members (apparently a lot of the population believe the churches are different). I know it says in the article that it is the LDS church, but still having a separate article all on its own seems redundant and aids in the general confusion already abound.

Thank you for your consideration. D — Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.106.18.70 (talk) 20:54, 17 June 2013 (UTC)

Hi; the main reason is that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (LDS Church) is not the only church that considers itself "Mormon". There are Mormon fundamentalists who call themselves "Mormons" and consider their doctrine to be the true or original Mormonism. So even though the LDS Church is the dominant organization within Mormonism, Mormonism is slightly larger than just the LDS Church. Good Ol’factory (talk) 23:25, 17 June 2013 (UTC)

"Mormons are NOT Christians"[edit]

Mormans believe that the Book of Morman (written by a MAN) is on the same level as the Bible (written by GOD), whereas Christians believe the Bible is on its own pedastool, alone in power. Therefore, since these two beliefs contradict, Mormans are, in fact, NOT Christians. Unlike the Part of a Series on Christianity, I do intend for this to be a debate on Are Mormons Christians?" <ref>The Holy Bible by God</ref> <ref>The Book of Morman by SRD (Some Random Dude)</ref> — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.94.252.244 (talkcontribs)

This issue has been discussed a number of times in the past. The problem is that there are a variety of definitions of what constitutes a "Christian". Mormons adopt a definition of it that is different than the one that is adopted by some Christians. So, in matters of religion, the consensus has been that it's best to generally conform to (1) the classification system used by academics, and (2) the self-identification of the adherents themselves. Using both (1) and (2), Mormons can be classified as Christians: Academics generally place Mormonism within the Restoration movement of Christianity, and Mormons clearly self-identify as Christians. (If you are interested, the issue is discussed in the WP article Mormonism and Christianity.) Good Ol’factory (talk) 22:35, 10 March 2014 (UTC)
And just for clarification, Mormons believe both the Bible and the Book of Mormon to be written by man under the inspiration of God.([1], [2]) For example, Mormons believe the Epistle of Paul to the Romans to actually be written by Paul through the inspiration of God, and not by the hand of God himself.([3]) This seems to be inline with Wikipedia's article as well. Dromidaon (talk) 18:13, 11 March 2014 (UTC)
If your intent is to debate if Mormons are Christians, you're in the wrong place. Wikipedia is not a soapbox, nor is it a forum for unregulated free speech. Our purpose is to build an encyclopedia, not to be a debating society. Additionally if you think you have anything new to add to the actual text of related articles, I'd suggest that you first look over the exhaustive discussions at Talk:Mormonism and Christianity (with 22 talk page archives, we need an archive index just to keep track of it all), as this has been talked to death. -- 208.81.184.4 (talk) 20:12, 11 March 2014 (UTC)
You may also wish to read up on the development of the Christian biblical canon (including the development of the Old Testament canon, the development of the New Testament canon, authorship of the Bible, biblical inspiration/verbal dictation, Christian biblical canons/Bible version debate, etc...), as the wording of your comments doesn't display any real grasp on the actual history of the collection of individual texts currently found in the biblical canon; the word "Bible" literally means "the books", as in plural - it is not a singular work with a single author. -- 208.81.184.4 (talk) 20:39, 11 March 2014 (UTC)

Members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints are Christians, FYI, Charles Edwin Shipp (talk) 20:53, 11 March 2014 (UTC) Thanks for noticing.

Difference between Latter Day Saint movement and Mormonism[edit]

I'm having trouble understanding what the purpose is in having distinct articles for Mormonism and the Latter Day Saint movement. I had taken "Mormonism" to be a name for the religion of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, but I'm finding that it's also applied to other Latter Day Saint denominations. Is that usage correct? If so, what need is there for two separate articles? If not, wouldn't the Mormonism article be merged with the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints one? Slb1900 (talk) 05:10, 25 March 2014 (UTC)

I add that the religious beliefs of the different denominations appear to me to be so divergent that to call them all one uniform "Mormonism" seems like an omission of detail. That's why it seems strange to me to have a single article presenting all denominations under one "Mormonism" umbrella. At the same time, a short delve into the Mormonism article brings repeated mentions of what Mormons do, to the apparent exclusion of the other denominations. Slb1900 (talk) 05:15, 25 March 2014 (UTC)
"Mormonism" generally refers to The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (LDS Church) and any church which has diverged from that church since it settled in Utah. So primarily, it's the LDS Church and the Mormon fundamentalist churches that make up modern "Mormonism". The term can also correctly be applied to the early days of the Latter Day Saint movement, before the schisms when Joseph Smith was the leader, though doing so can cause confusion sometimes.
The Latter Day Saint movement is broader, and generally includes all of the churches that trace their "lineage" back to the original Church of Christ (Latter Day Saints) that Joseph Smith started. It includes the Latter Day Saint groups that resulted from the members who did not follow Brigham Young to Utah, including the Community of Christ (old RLDS Church) and the other "Prairie Saint" denominations. These groups generally do not accept the label "Mormon", though there are some exceptions to this. (As an example, older writings from leaders of the RLDS Church routinely refer to the LDS Church as "the Mormon Church", implying that the RLDS Church itself was not "Mormon".) Good Ol’factory (talk) 05:22, 25 March 2014 (UTC)
I think what I wrote above is generally supported by the approach taken by the AP Stylebook, which says that the name "Mormon" should not be applied to the "other churches" that resulted from the split after Joseph Smith's death. I take this to mean it is appropriately applied to the larger Brigham Young faction (LDS Church) and any church that derived from it (Mormon fundamentalists), but not to the smaller factions which remained in Illinois or the other midwestern states after Smith's death. Good Ol’factory (talk) 21:02, 25 March 2014 (UTC)

Peter, James, and John - possible typo?[edit]

The section titled "Restoration" describes Peter, James, John, and John the Baptist as angels. I know virtually nothing about Mormonism, but those figures are usually identified as apostles and so I have edited the article to read "apostles" under the assumption that "angels" is a typo. If "angels" is actually the intended reading, feel free to revert.163.11.145.139 (talk) 18:49, 1 September 2014 (UTC)

Both are correct. They were the three apostles, appearing as angels. Technically, John was said to have been a "translated being", but that gets a bit into the weeds. Good Ol’factory (talk) 01:59, 2 September 2014 (UTC)