Talk:Mudaliar

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References for Kaikolar/Sengunthar[edit]

REGARDING KAIKKOLAR AND MUDALIS It may be noyted here that the terms above refer to only positions and not to caste. the word kaikkolar means one belonging to a regiment. any one can belong to a regiment . similarly mudali means an supervisor or an official. this again does mot indicate caste. Thre by it is proven beyond doubt that the hordes of "mudaliyar" ,"pillai" came to existence after 16th century and are obscure in origin(probably stemmed from jains/buddists). they certainly do not point to caste amd a vedic one at that. hohe of the inscriptions of ancient dynasty describe these castes.

There is another good story behind the origin of these races. During last phases of dwapara age sage ugrasarvas explains to pandavas that in the age of kali many demons will be born in earth as human beings. They will be born into different human castes like brahmins, vaisyas,kshatriyas, sudras etc and colonize different parts of the world. They create confusion and wreak havoc by spreading lies far and wide. They indulge in all kinds of wicked activities to ensure maximum assault on truth. Thereby in the age of kali o bharatas !adherence to one's duty alone can bring one closer to salvation.



—Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.162.175.45 (talk) 12:26, 2 October 2008 (UTC) 
  • Asia in the Making of Europe: A Century of Advance. Book 2, South Asia - Page 1032

by Donald F Lach, Edwin J Van Kley - History - 1998 - 662 pages Snippet view:[1]: Clearly describes the status of Kaikolars.

  • Book: Of Property and Propriety: The Role of Gender and Class in Imperialism and Nationalism - Page 178 by Bannerji, Himani, Mojab, Shahrzad, Whitehead, Judith [2] Again, the google link provides a limited preview. This books also talks in great length about the Kaikolar Devadasis and the Brahmin men.
  • Madras Gazetteer recognized by the Government of India: providing google link. follow link for full book. [3], [4]

The Kaikolars are described in great detail in the following research articles and their identity has been clearly proven as the same terinja-Kaikolar Padai of the Chola empire. There is absolutely no question of any ambiguity. You can only deny in vain. Pathetic.

  • The Erotic Sculptures of India Y. Krishan Artibus Asiae, Vol. 34, No. 4 (1972), pp. 331-343

(proves that kaikolan musicians = devadasis) snippet view: [5] link 2: http://links.jstor.org/sici?sici=0004-3648(1972)34%3A4%3C331%3ATESOI%3E2.0.CO%3B2-2

  • Artisans in Vijayanagar Society, Vijaya Ramaswamy, Indian Economic & Social History Review, Vol. 22, No. 4, 417-444 (1985)

This research article explains the blood relation between the Devadasis and the Kaikolar. ("Devaradiyar (dancing girls who have very close kinship ties with the Kaikkolar"[6]

This research article explains in vivid detail, the way the Kaikkolas used their women to enjoy special privileges in the Vijayanagar empire. (Text Quoted from article: "At least one woman in every Kaikkola household was, according to age-old tradition dedicated to the temple as a devaradiyar or devadasi. The devaradiyar enjoyed special privileges in the days of the Vijayanagar empire and were the only women permitted a direct audience with the king". link2:[7]

This research article (along with references to an inscription) describes how a devaradiyar or devadasi won special privileges for the Kaikkolas from the king Deva Raya II (A.D 1433).

snippet view: link2:[8]

  • Some Enquiries into the Condition of Weavers in Medieval South India, Indian Historical Review, Vol. VI, Nos. 1 and 2
  • This article talks in much detail about how women from the Sengundhar/ Kaikola caste get into the sacred prostitution in temples.

"Contending identities: Sacred prostitution and reform in colonial South India Priyadarshini Vijaisri A1, A1 Centre for the Study of Developing Societies (CSDS), New Delhi" South Asia: Journal of South Asian Studies Publisher: Routledge, part of the Taylor & Francis Group Issue: Volume 28, Number 3 / December 2005 Pages: 387 - 411 [9] —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.214.25.228 (talk) 03:23, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

Kaikolars(weavers)reference: Some Marriage Customs in Southern India: Deformity and Mutilation, Uralis ... - Page 141 By Thurston. E.[edit]

In the book Some Marriage Customs in Southern India: Deformity and Mutilation, Uralis ... - Page 141 By Thurston. E., the author Edgar Thurston describes the devadasi custom of Kaikolars(weavers) as follows:

Quoted from book [10]: A custom prevails among the Kaikolars (weavers) by which one woman in each family becomes a prostitute, while retaining her caste. The girl chosen is taken to the temple where a sword is placed beside her with a tali (marriage badge) under it. The tali is then tied round her neck by any woman present and she returns to her own house where she is permitted to carry on any amours she chooses. She gets her share of the family property just as as if no such ceremony had taken place. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.97.250.141 (talk) 04:20, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

Require ref for Sadayappa Mudaliar[edit]

Pls cite a reference that shows Vallal Sadayapa was a Kongu Vellala gounder. ShivNarayanan (talk) 02:00, 12 December 2008 (UTC)

Mudaliar/Mudali[edit]

Etymology and definition of words Mudali and Mudaliar. Glosssary section: Caste and Capitalism in Colonial India: The Nattukottai Chettiars By David West Rudner

ShivNarayanan (talk) 02:02, 12 December 2008 (UTC)

Karaiyar using Mudali title[edit]

Karaiyar, a fishing community also uses Mudali title

Ref:Caste, Nationalism and Ethnicity By Jacob Pandian

JSTOR: Political Emblems of Caste Identity--Sureshmaran (talk) 06:21, 13 December 2008 (UTC)

Mudaliar is a title and not a caste[edit]

In the Book "Rural Society in Southeast India" By Kathleen Gough, it is shown that mudaliar was a title [11]

Again it is shown clearly the difference between the caste and the title in the book "Uproot Hindutva "By Thirumaavalavan, Meena Kandasamy [12] [13] Caste meant a profession and mudali was just a title again

Rajah of Cochin was also awarded this title. It is shown in the book "Jews in India" By Thomas A. Timberg [14]

It can't denote a particular caste as shown in the references --Sureshmaran (talk) 14:17, 5 February 2009 (UTC)

Mudaliar was also used to represent a caste: Glosssary section:

Caste and Capitalism in Colonial India: The Nattukottai Chettiars By David West Rudner. ShivNarayanan (talk) 16:34, 5 February 2009 (UTC)

Mudaliar is a caste and not a title[edit]

Mudaliar might have been a title initially, but today it IS a caste.

Point no.1: Many of the street names had the postfix "Mudali Street". These were removed by politicians saying that Jaadi/ caste names should not be there. If it was only a title, then why should this happen?

Point no.2: Today, people live in societies and not in a kingdom and there is no one to assign the title to someone.

Point No. 3: Marriages take place by seeking within the Mudaliars making it clearly a caste.

Point No. 4: The Tamil Nadu govt. provides reservations on the basis of caste like Sched. Caste, BC etc. I don't have to prove this. See it for yourself Agamudayar is Sl.No.1 in the BC list. http://ncbc.nic.in/backward-classes/tamilnadu.html

Point No.5: Tamil Nadu govt. uses only a two name convention, viz. the persons name follwed by father's name. The surname column is not present in any forms/certificates (done to eliminate caste). This convention is also follwed in the SSC certificate which become a reference anywhere, whereas rest of India uses a third column surname everywhere. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 59.92.62.107 (talk) 04:09, 18 July 2009 (UTC)

Today, clearly, MUDALIAR is a caste and not a title. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 59.92.62.107 (talk) 03:55, 18 July 2009 (UTC)

In the list of Backward classes, there is not a single caste mentioned as Mudaliar. It's a caste title of about six or more castes. They may intermarry among them. But the benefits such as reservation comes only under their caste name and not under Mudaliar making it clearly a title--Sureshmaran (talk) 00:25, 19 July 2009 (UTC)

Mudaliar, a community[edit]

Nowadays Mudaliar is more a community, with some specific castes using this title than a caste. It is not right to call it a caste. It is a community of castes such as Arcot thuluva Vellalars, Sengunthars, Vellalars and its sub-divisions--Sureshmaran (talk) 03:29, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

You gotta source? -- The Red Pen of Doom 03:39, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

A citation from the book-"Castes-Webster's Quotation,facts and phrases" [15]--Sureshmaran (talk) 03:52, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

The following source says the castes cited in the above reference as separate castes in the backward classes list in the Indian state of Tamil Nadu

[16]-This clearly shows that these castes are different but making a Mudaliar community altogether--Sureshmaran (talk) 04:04, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

The government website source, as such, could be used to claim the description "backward class" but not "Community"" We report what the source actually says, not an interpretation.The "Castes" book linked through google books is actually just a Wikipedia mirror and not a reliable source (notice the WP as the author at the end of the article entry) -- The Red Pen of Doom 05:07, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

Infobox images[edit]

I suggest one image for a field for the images in infobox. Any other suggestions are welcomed--Sureshmaran (talk) 04:46, 6 August 2009 (UTC)


Gatti Mudaliar[edit]

I tried to make this section make more sense, as, I assume, did the editor before me, but it needs a dedicated re-write. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Chamberlian (talkcontribs) 18:27, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

Would A.R. Rahman come in this in History??[edit]

Wanted to know if A.R. Rahman should be under the History Section?

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