Talk:Mustafa Kemal Atatürk

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Cscr-former.svg Mustafa Kemal Atatürk is a former featured article candidate. Please view the links under Article milestones below to see why the nomination failed. For older candidates, please check the archive.

Semi-protected edit request on 2 May 2014[edit]

army officer in the Ottoman military, reformist statesman Mustafa Kemal Atatürk (pronounced [musˈtäfä ceˈmäl ätäˈtyɾc]; 19 May 1881 (conventional) – 10 November 1938) was a Turkish army officer in the Ottoman military, reformist statesman, and the first President of Turkey. (talk) 21:17, 2 May 2014 (UTC)

Red information icon with gradient background.svg Not done: I think that would be a bit of WP:OVERLINKING, your changes would leave essentially just articles unlinked. Also, changing revolutionary to reformist may not be the best, reformism seems to mean making small changes over time whereas Ataturk seems to have made major sweeping changes Cannolis (talk) 01:06, 3 May 2014 (UTC)


CORRECTION to the article should include a statement like: officer in the Ottoman military, reformist statesman Mustafa Kemal Atatürk (pronounced [musˈtäfä ceˈmäl ätäˈtyɾc]; 19 May 1881 (conventional) – 10 November 1938) was a Turkish army officer in the Ottoman military, reformist statesman, and the first President of Turkey. (talk) 04:51, 3 May 2014 (UTC) Pronounciation The correct Pronounciation should be Mūsˈtāphā Kaˈmāl ātāˈtyɾc (talk) 05:07, 3 May 2014 (UTC)

1. Just because he is referred to as İNKILÂPÇI in Turkey does not mean the term "reformist" should be used in English. Reformist means something quite particular. The way the term "revolutionary" in the article is being used is not as a title as you seem to be using İNKILÂPÇI, it is a description. Reading the definition of 'revolutionary' in English may be helpful to your understanding.
2. I am no expert on pronunciations but the pronunciation you advocated in your original edit request is the exact same as that in the article. If the pronunciation you are claiming is correct here is different when you format it properly, I would be more than happy to find someone and figure out if it is correct Cannolis (talk) 12:49, 3 May 2014 (UTC) (talk) 15:57, 3 May 2014 (UTC)

Try to disregard what revolutionary means in Turkish. In English, it does not necessarily refer to bringing about a revolution. See dictionary definition. There are multiple definitions. Cannolis (talk) 23:32, 3 May 2014 (UTC)

Atatürk & Castro

Are they the same in their acheivements? Revolutionist- Fidel Castro ----O.K. Revolutionist- Atatürk ---- is NOT O.K. You have to find another WORD!! (talk) 01:58, 5 May 2014 (UTC)

Revolution is a consequence of Revolt, Rebellion, Insurrection, Uprising. These terms are NOT identical to Turkish War of Independence which is NEITHER a Revolution NOR anyone of Revolt, Rebellion, Insurrection, Uprising. (talk) 04:39, 5 May 2014 (UTC) Therefore you should make the corrections, i.e., Atatürk was NOT a revolutionist as Castro was. (talk) 04:42, 5 May 2014 (UTC)

He is totally right Atatürk was a reformist not revolutionary leader. So reformist is the correct term for him (devrimci değil inkılapçı) elmasmelih (used to be KazekageTR) 11:03, 5 May 2014 (UTC)

Very much disagree. If he were a reformist, then he would have made changes gradually over time. From reading this article it seems like he made very major changes in a rather short duration. Linking Turkish terms does not sway me in the least, this is the English Wikipedia, grammatically correct English terms will be used here. seems to believe that Castro is the only possible example of a revolutionary. This is also very incorrect. It is also the case that the Turkish War of Independence is a revolution. Cannolis (talk) 12:15, 5 May 2014 (UTC)

Sorry about your statement above. THEN YOU SHOULD SAY THAT IT WAS A REVOLUTION AGAINST FRANCE, GRECE, GREAT BRITAIN, and RUSSIA (talk) 18:41, 5 May 2014 (UTC) Revolutionaries

I think you have never seen a revolution.

Further information: French Revolution

The Turkish War of Independence is a revolution against the occupying allied-armies of FRANCE, GRECE, GREAT BRITAIN, and RUSSIA (talk) 18:49, 5 May 2014 (UTC) This statement shold then be written somewhere in your article.

"he led the Turkish National Movement in the Turkish War of Independence. Having established a provisional government in Ankara, he defeated the forces sent by the Allies". These are the 4th and 5th sentences in this article. Also, this is exactly what wikilinks are for. see something blue you don't know about, click on it, learn a bit more. I think you have no understanding of the definition of English word "revolutionary" and its wide range of use, as opposed to the Turkish term, which seems to be much more specific. Cannolis (talk) 21:13, 5 May 2014 (UTC)
On a side note, I don't believe Russia was involved in the Turkish Revolution, no mention of them is made on the page Cannolis (talk) 21:15, 5 May 2014 (UTC) (talk) 02:16, 6 May 2014 (UTC)

  • Though our Turkish guys incorrectly translates your "revolutionary" as (DEVRİMCİ) into Turkish wikipedia.

It was a RESISTANCE not a REVOLUTION please refer to a dictionary first. Secondly inkılapçı means REFORMIST not REVOLUTIONARY. elmasmelih (used to be KazekageTR) 06:22, 6 May 2014 (UTC)

The two are not mutually exclusive terms. Secondly, it does not matter what inkılapçı means, this article is not a translation of the Turkish one. Cannolis (talk) 07:47, 6 May 2014 (UTC)

So it is a wrong word to use, cause he simply isnt elmasmelih (used to be KazekageTR) 08:33, 6 May 2014 (UTC)

Wrong. Unless you consider overthrowing a government and the Ottoman Sultanate as gradual reforms over a long period of time, he is not a reformist. I cannot help your misunderstanding if you are refusing to read the page. Cannolis (talk) 10:22, 6 May 2014 (UTC)

Cannolis: Some Turkish wikipedia peple are translating to Turkish incorrectly as REVOLUTIONIST because of you!! (talk) 09:40, 6 May 2014 (UTC)

Cute. I do not care. They should not be using Wikipedia articles as sources. Cannolis (talk) 10:25, 6 May 2014 (UTC)

He/she does not violates WP:CIRCULAR(he doesnt cites any wiki pages on article please read rules carefully) he just states that you have providing wrong word to define him in Turkish Wikipedia.elmasmelih (used to be KazekageTR) 12:33, 6 May 2014 (UTC)

What? I don't care what term is used in the Turkish Wikipedia. I only care what is going on here in the English Wikipedia. If "Some Turkish wikipedia peple are translating to Turkish incorrectly", that is not my problem, that is their violation of WP:CIRCULAR. Look at the reformism page. The very first sentence defines it as "the belief that gradual changes through and within existing institutions can ultimately change a society's fundamental economic system and political structures." This is the opposite of what Ataturk did. He fought a revolution, an independence war, and drastically changed the Turkish government. Revolutionary is a perfect adequate term to describe him. Cannolis (talk) 13:00, 6 May 2014 (UTC)

Actually it is EXACTLY what he did. He politically, socially, economically changed Turkey/instutions in Turkey/instruments of government/society. He even reformed social issues like how to wear and how to write etc..He didint participated in a revolution because there was no revolution but an independence war. Which was not a revolution at all. Reformist is the perfect adequate term to describe him indeed.

I would like to paste the second paragraph in this article:

Atatürk then embarked upon a program of political, economic, and cultural reforms, seeking to transform the former Ottoman Empire into a modern, secular, and democratic nation-state. Under his leadership, thousands of new schools were built, primary education was made free and compulsory, and women were given equal civil and political rights, while the burden of taxation on peasants was reduced

Nearly what reformism says....elmasmelih (used to be KazekageTR) 13:16, 6 May 2014 (UTC)

"gradual changes through and within existing institutions". I am completely in agreement that he made changes. I do not believe they were slow, gradual changes. Nor is it the case that he made them with/through existing institutions - he overthrew a government and installed a new one.
An independence war is indistinguishable from a revolution. See revolution - "a fundamental change in power or organizational structures that takes place in a relatively short period of time". See American Revolutionary War which is interchangeable with American War of Independence. Cannolis (talk) 22:48, 6 May 2014 (UTC)

mustafa Kemal atatürk[edit]

not Cemal, djemal,


mustafa Kemal atatürk[edit]

not Cemal, djemal,

Kemal! — Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 05:39, 24 June 2014 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 26 June 2014[edit]

pronounced [musˈtäfä ceˈmäl ätäˈtyɾc] ---> pronounced [musˈtäfä keˈmäl ätäˈtyɾc] (talk) 10:34, 26 June 2014 (UTC)

Red information icon with gradient background.svg Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. --Mdann52talk to me! 11:29, 26 June 2014 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 26 June 2014[edit]

[musˈtäfä ceˈmäl ätäˈtyɾc] ---> [musˈtafa keˈmal ataˈtyɾc]

Nevermind past request, i get it, K is written as C, but it might as well be written as K

ɑ is the right letter for a in Mustafa Kemal, there is no ä in turkish ipa,_Azerbaijani_and_Turkmen and K is better than C, turkish learners may be confused, because C is pronounced DJ