Talk:Mycenaean Greece

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Comments[edit]

However, the majority view is that the Greek gods are descended from Indo-European religion. Which modern mythographer would this be referring to then? Wetman 05:53, 23 Aug 2004 (UTC)

I have deleted the whole sentence which is speculation and not very relevant to the topic anyway. This article needs more work. Adam 06:00, 23 Aug 2004 (UTC)

And I've deleted 24.23.21.77's edit of "Bronze Age" Greece, which was "Golden Age" for him. The Philistines live on, I fear... (Zimriel 23:00, 28 May 2006 (UTC))

When I added the map, it made the photo layout look funny, and since I'm still a bit of an HTML retard, I can't seem to make it line up well. Any help would be appreciated. Nine999999999s 00:43, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

I have removed the: "Wikimedia Commons has media related to:" box of Mycenean Civilisation as the link was dead, if anyone wants to put it back in and fix up the commons article as well then feel free. 58.167.193.62 11:08, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

The link is to Category:Mycenaean culture. It works from fr:Wiki, but I can't make the connection from here. --Wetman 14:10, 27 May 2007 (UTC). Pay no mind: I did it! --Wetman 14:14, 27 May 2007 (UTC)


/new comment/ The picture with the caption, 'mycenean woman', is inaccurate. I have seen pictures of a similar nature in Greece, and they refer to a similarly clad woman as being from Crete (Minoan). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.160.33.205 (talk) 22:52, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

Historical overview[edit]

The "Archaeology" section was almost all a summary of Late Helladic pottery and of its use in chronology. While very good, much of it overlapped the Helladic period article. Also, this article should concern primarily Greece itself. I've moved most of this article's "Archaeology" section over there. This "Archaeology" section can remain as a discussion of the history and methods of excavating in Bronze Age sites of Greece; and studies of trade in LH IIIA, IIIB ware etc. But researches specific to LH chronology should be directed over to Helladic period. Zimriel 06:00, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

How about "historical overview" on the model of the Minoan Crete site? We can have another heading for "archaeology" which is actually about the archaeology... (Zimriel 22:55, 28 May 2006 (UTC))

re BCE/CE at Mycenaean Greece[edit]

I have posted the following notice at User:Milkbreath's talkpage (Wetman 22:06, 20 August 2007 (UTC)):

BC/AD is a convention always used in Wikipedia articles on specifically Christian subjects. In non-Christian subjects, however, changing established BCE/CE usage to BC/AD is a discourtesy, rather like "correcting" spelling to American practice. I'm sure you understand that whatever convention is established in an article, we simply go with it. Will you clean up your changes at your next edit at Mycenaean Greece. Thank you. --Wetman 22:02, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
I see, now that Ive checked ancient page history, that this article began with BC 10:41, 8 April 2004. So it's stuck in that mode. My error: you so rarely see "BC" in professional literature. --Wetman 22:12, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

I wanted to ask what would be the issue with correcting the notation? The use of BC comes off as highly "unprofessional" considering the subject matter. FiReSTaRT (talk) 05:50, 15 November 2010 (UTC)

The[edit]

"The palace" is like "the dog" in "The dog has great powers of endurance." "The" refers to a class. See this. "Palaces" means that, too, but it doesn't work so well in the sentence "The organization of artisanal labor is especially well known in the case of the palace" because "case" is singular. --Milkbreath 17:03, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

Mycynaens in Epirus[edit]

A Historical Greek Reader: Mycenaean to the Koine,by Stephen Colvin,ISBN-10: 0199226601,2008,Page 40,"... (innovations) until the post-Mycenaean period.' In the late second millennium the proto- Aeolians seem to have occupied the regions between Epirus and Thessaly, ..."

Prehistory and History by David W. Tandy ,ISBN-10: 1551641887,2001,Page 4,"... 9mbracian V r 0 10 20 30 km I Gulf 32 Figure 1: Map of Epirus showing the locations of known sites with Mycenaean remains. ..."       
Prehistory and History by David W. Tandy ,ISBN-10: 1551641887,2001,Page 6:

"... and the mechanisms by which such interactions took place. The strongest evidence for Mycenaean presence in Epirus is found in the coastal zone of the lower Acheron River, ..."

Prehistory and History by David W. Tandy ,ISBN-10: 1551641887,2001,Page 17:

"... The Mycenaean Presence in Southwestern Epirus Taking into account the discoveries of the Nikopolis Project, remains of Mycenaean provenience or inspiration are known

Prehistory and History by David W. Tandy ,ISBN-10: 1551641887,2001,Page 18:

"... and more gently on the south and west. From this acropolis-like settlement comes the strongest evidence for Mycenaean presence in Epirus. A circuit wall employing Cyclopean masonry, muCh of which can still be traced, ..."

Prehistory and History by David W. Tandy ,ISBN-10: 1551641887,2001,Page 22:

"... a fragmentary condition, it appears that the assemblage conforms in chronological and formal terms to Mycenaean pottery already known from Epirus. The kylix is the most commonly identifiable shape, with fewer sherds belonging to stirrup jars, kraters, cups, and other shapes. ..."

Prehistory and History by David W. Tandy ,ISBN-10: 1551641887,2001,Page 23:

"... at Mazaraki in the interior of northern Epirus, of Aegean pottery and bronze objects as burial goods in Gist graves (Wardle 1977, 177, fig. 10 nos. 476, 477; ...

Prehistory and History by David W. Tandy ,ISBN-10: 1551641887,2001, Page 24:

"... There is no reason to imagine that these constructions in Epirus would have been among the first, although construction dates in the first half of LH IIIB are not unlikely. ..."

Prehistory and History by David W. Tandy ,ISBN-10: 1551641887,2001,Page 27:

"... GLYKYS LIMIN /23 of domesticated cattle are found in excavated contexts in Epirus from late Neolithic times (Douzough and Zachos 1994, 17); Ephyra and the adjacent Nekyomanteion site have produced them alongside those ..."

Prehistory and History by David W. Tandy ,ISBN-10: 1551641887,2001,Page 30:

"... or luxury items of Mycenaean type-imported pottery and bronze weapons and utilitarian objects-were deposited primarily in graves and hoards throughout Epirus, ...

Prehistory and History by David W. Tandy ,ISBN-10: 1551641887,2001,Page 34:

"... desires of those who possessed them to constrain or mobilize social action. In the case of Mycenaean engagement in coastal Epirus, ..."

 Prehistory and History by David W. Tandy ,ISBN-10: 1551641887,2001,Table of Contents:

"... A Mycenaean Port of Trade in Southern Epirus?

Megistias (talk) 13:55, 23 February 2008 (UTC)

Identity[edit]

I tagged the "Identity" section unreferenced. I think perhaps it should be deleted entirely, as it seems to be from a school essay or similar. From the way it is worded, it seems like the theory advanced could be the writer's own, not a credentialed historian. Any thoughts? --RhoOphuichi (talk) 05:22, 22 June 2009 (UTC)

The Article is Internally Inconsistent[edit]

"Apollo may be recognized at Knossos as PA-JA-WO ... with the "Two Goddesses", apparently Demeter..."

is followed below by

"Notably absent are Apollo, Aphrodite, Demeter"

Perhaps the apodictic tone of the latter sentence needs softening, but I'm no expert, only noting the inconsistency here... 173.21.106.137 (talk) 11:33, 6 February 2010 (UTC)

Reference to Linear B tablet in Heidelberg[edit]

I know nothing about mr Palaima, but a quick glance at his CV makes me think he's serious. Yet, it seems to me as if this article of his is a joke.

First and foremost:

- He says that he found the Linear B tablet during a Graecist conference in Heidelberg. How convenient!

- He says he dropped it due to excitement and that it vanished in the mud, but he seems to remember it photographically since he has drawn it. What a great guy!

- The tone is pretty jocular: "Then follow entries wherein officials who are known elsewhere as 'mayor' and 'vice-mayor' are listed by personal names: lukwos = Wolf and the notorious ra-pi-ne-u, who is also attested on a Linear B text from Corsica which is suspected of being a forgery. It is reported that this personal name also occurs in Tasmanian aboriginal inscriptions."

Boldface and italics are all mine. This article is clearly a joke and therefore I remove the reference to it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sixtensson (talkcontribs) 22:47, 18 October 2010 (UTC)

I added it back, Thomas G. Palaima is a well known Mycenologist. A Macedonian (talk) 07:48, 19 October 2010 (UTC)
LOL, Palaima is indeed one of the foremost Mycenaeologists, but this is just a well known hoax/joke disseminated through the internet. For this and other similarly hilarious hoaxes see [[1]].
Thanks for pointing this out, but can you please provide a valid source for it, since this one doesn't really help ? A Macedonian (talk) 09:38, 7 November 2010 (UTC)
A valid source for what? That this was just a joke? Palaima was just playing a joke to the members of the conference. This was published at the end of the volume and it is plain obvious that it was meant as a joke. --Giorgos Tzimas (talk) 10:05, 7 November 2010 (UTC)
Just came back home and I 'll try to further dispell any doubts that this is just a joke by Palaima. Appart from these quite illustrative concluding remarks in Palaima's paper: "The tablet concludes in typically fragmentary fashion with an ideogram for a cup, partially preserved, preceded by the phonetic abbreviation ka. After much pondering, I propose that these be taken together as a reference to another custom which we might be surprised to find attested in such early times: ka = kaphes + BROKEN CUP signifies coffee break. Such a custom would seem to have been necessary as ra-pi-ne-u and his WOLF led their contingent of men, women and young assistants through the various stages of the ptoliteia-festival. " I should point out that the editors of the volumes and organisers of the proceedings, Robert Laffineur and Wolf-Dietrich Niemeier are alluded to in the transcriptions ra-pi-ne-u = Laffineur and ru-qo = lukwos = Wolf (ha ha ha ha)... hope there are no doubts left.--Giorgos Tzimas (talk) 13:13, 7 November 2010 (UTC)
Lol, definitely not! A Macedonian (talk) 14:24, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

Mycenaean Death Mask[edit]

The Myceneaen Death Mask,was not identified by Schlieman as the death mask of Agamemnon. He believed it to be so and sent a telegram to this effect to the King of Greece. However, he got his time periods wrong by about 200 years. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.132.146.150 (talk) 13:58, 22 October 2010 (UTC)

On the Historicity/Identification of Troy[edit]

I just wanted to say, as far as I understand from a colleague of mine, an extremely experience archaeologist, who has actually excavated at Troy, there is a general consensus among historians, that the Trojan war DID happen, and that "Troy" is the Troy of the Iliad. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.241.31.99 (talk) 03:45, 4 November 2010 (UTC)

Hi. I just read the entry and had a similar reaction. The passage about Mycenae and Troy conflates two subjects: the historicity of the Iliad and the historical fact (now overwhelmingly agreed to) on the positive identification of Troy where Schliemann excavated. This paragraph is not consistent with the content and tone of the entries concerning Troy and the Trojan war. The direction of this paragraph should be edited, as a debate about Troy isn't really germane to this entry. Made shorter, it should say something like: "Mycenae may have also conquered Troy, in the events described in the Iliad, which was once thought purely mythical. Though the historicity of the Iliad is still questionable, most scholars now agree that Troy was a historic city across the Aegean Sea in what is now modern-day Turkey and evidence suggests it may have been destroyed in a violent conflict." Pdwschmidt (talk) 21:13, 13 June 2014 (UTC)

Mycaenean collapse[edit]

THe Dorian invasions, presented as main stream here, is actually not the current concensus. Rather, internal discord, general brakdown of trade thru Meditteranean, blockage of access to mines, etc, brought about this general collapse. Hxseek (talk) 01:57, 9 January 2011 (UTC)

Architecture: Palaces[edit]

The link to the source of that newly found palace near the village of Xirokambi seems to be faulty. It doesn't open for me at least. Can someone double-check that? Maybe someone has another link to the same information?

132.229.241.55 (talk) 11:42, 25 January 2011 (UTC)

Dialectological map[edit]

LBAGreece.png

While a map of the dialects in Mycenean Greece prior to the "Dorian invasion" (or Bronze Age Collapse, whatever you choose to call it) seems like an interesting idea, the newly inserted map has several issues and needs work before it can be added to the article. Specifically:

  • NW Greek in Epirus and southern Central Greece, but the area in between them is blank?
  • "Cretan" in Thessaly? This is absolutely baffling.
  • Ditto with Pamphylian in Thessaly.
  • The shade of Thessalian used in the legend shows that it is spoken in Elis. Clearly incorrect use of color.
  • What is "Lesbian" and where is it on the map?
  • The shade of Boeotian used in the legend shows Boeotian spoken in Thessaly, while the shade used in Boeotia itself is different. This is confusing.
  • What about the islands?

Moreover, there is the question of how so detailed a map can be produced for an era for which there is zero written evidence. For these reasons, the map should be removed and worked on, and only when a correct version is ready should it be inserted. Athenean (talk) 21:29, 24 March 2011 (UTC)

Sure, the colours can be changed to be more clear. I accept that the this might not be a universally accepted reconstruction, but the caption states just that - a reconstruction according to Finkelberg. Essentially, she argued, prior to the Doiran invasions, there was a uniform dialectical continuum from Epirus to Peloponesse. She compared several features of the dialects known in historic times, grouped them into groupings and then 'worked backwards' to place them where they were most likely to have been. That is how she has come up with Cretan in Thssaly, eg, which then migrated to Crete. There's an entire chapter on this and how she came up with it in her book Greeks and pre-Greeks. I accpet that her findings are not universal, nor can they be given the dearth of evidence. However, I thought that if we clearly label this as hypothetical (whic it has been), it can be included for interest's sake Slovenski Volk (talk) 21:42, 24 March 2011 (UTC)
That's fine, I'm not opposed to the map itself, but even if we hedge it as hypothetical, it needs work before it can be included in the article. It has too many errors to be included in its present version. Athenean (talk) 21:45, 24 March 2011 (UTC)
Apart from the colouring, what else ? And, I will re-check the original map, but i think she didn;t really include the islands, nor Aetolia for some reason !? Slovenski Volk (talk) 22:11, 24 March 2011 (UTC)
Besides the coloring, the Cretan and Pamphylian spoken in Magnesia. Athenean (talk) 22:45, 24 March 2011 (UTC)
I am relatively coinfident that I transcribed the map accurately. Nevertheless I will double check (might be a while, the book is out currently); otherwise it might be a matter of whether you accept that Finkelberg's thoery is not too FRINGE in placing Pamhylian and Cretan where she has Slovenski Volk (talk) 01:43, 25 March 2011 (UTC)
I will re-do the colours to be more contrastable. The source book has currently been borrowed by someone elst from my local library. So you can just removed it for now if you wish until I do the new one. Slovenski Volk (talk) 00:47, 26 March 2011 (UTC)
Sounds good. Looking forward to the next version. Athenean (talk) 00:59, 26 March 2011 (UTC)

I have re-checked the map by Finkelberg, and what I have done above is true. Unfortunately, she has only focussed on the mainland, and excluded even Crete. I have touched -up the shading to make it more clear, and can upload a new version shosrtly Slovenski Volk (talk) 22:56, 6 April 2011 (UTC)

Military[edit]

wheres the military section ИΘИ ИΘЬЇS SΘLЦMтдлжЅТЦФФ 14:02, 31 August 2012 (UTC)

Relevance of Manuel Robbins?[edit]

See talk page of Bronze Age collapse:

The relevance of Manuel Robbins is in question.
See the talk page.
Thank you. --Thorwald C. Franke (talk) 17:22, 9 September 2012 (UTC)

Fabric and its applications[edit]

204.38.52.66 (talk) 17:07, 14 July 2014 (UTC) Seafaring peoples must have had extensive weaving industries for sails. This is almost never identified in a discussion of a civilization. Yet we have the claim that Uluburun copper which has been identified as from the UP in American, must have been a product of trans oceanic sailing. Here this article for the first time states the large amount of weaving and claims it must have been an export product. Why would a civilization export wool to a wool producing country? Pottery yes, silk yes, dyes yes, wool no. The women did the weaving so shared power. Until slavery arrived.