Talk:Nüwa

Delete Random Speculation

I'm removing all comparative speculation, even though it is obviously more cautiously worded than before. Reasons: 1. Comparison does not provide meaningful insight. The few superficial similarities between myths is presented without any "impact" and thus adds nothing to our understanding of Nuwa. 2. Comparison implies connection. By presenting a comparison it associates these two myths in the minds of the lay reader. We should not be laying the foundations for conspiracy theories about the Egyptian origions of Chinese civilization, or vice versa. 3. These appear to be "independent research" although that is really generous. A more accurate term would be random speculation. There are no citations. 4. Comparisons are superficial and over-generalized. Saying that there is similarity between these myths is like saying "Burt Reynolds is similar to Hitler" because they both have facial hair situated between nose and mouth. So I'm deleting the whole ridiculous section, unless someone can make a compelling case for why we should be comparing NvWa to any western mythology. --Ouyangwulong (talk) 06:09, 10 January 2009 (UTC)

You certainly have my blessing ;-) Not sure you got the whole point of the 'cautious re-wording', though: The idea was to refute the whole Nuwa/Noah thing and to demonstrate once and for all why it's obviously based in nothing but wishful thinking and sloppy association. Just deleting it might prompt someone to simply smuggle the 'original' version back in (hope not, but it happened before - see the history of this article - with people claiming their 'ideas' got 'suppressed'). Well, just for the record:

• None of the core motives of the tradition of Nuwa (creation of mankind, repair of heaven, union with brotherly consort) are found in the story of Noah (destruction of mankind by divine wrath, universal flood, escape of the righteous by means of an ark).
• Noah and Deucalion/Pyrrha have remote similarities, but Noah and Nuwa do not share any.
• Noah only 'sounds like' Nuwa if you use the contemporary pronunciations in English and Mandarin. Noah has a ח at the end (Heth) - it's a kh sound, it's not a silent [h] - that would be ה (He). If I follow Bernard Karlgren's Analytic Dictionary of Chinese and Sino-Japanese - quite a safe bet - the Middle Chinese pronunciation of nv was ni^wo, the second syllable is wa - doesn't sound much like No-akh, does it?

--Hakseng (talk) 05:09, 24 January 2009 (UTC)

Copy-edit

Hi everyone! I came to this article to help copy-edit the "sources" section because it was in the backlog of articles needing copy edit, but I decided to replace the copyedit tag with a rewrite tag, and leave comments, instead.

Suggestions for improvement:

1. Please follow the Wikipedia:Manual of Style (lists of works) for a formatting guide.
2. Please use an invisible comment to communicate with another editor, and not "(Note: please maintain pattern of date, author, book, chapter, account, and detail for future additions.)". Using <!-- TEXT HERE --> will allow editors, and not readers, to see the text.
3. If these works are sources used also for the rest of the article, please consider placing them in a citation section.

Okie that's all, and feel free to say hi to me on my talk page *grin* -Samuel tan85 (talk) 03:54, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

Agree - might have a crack at it later. Another suggestion: how about a table? and at the end of the article. Manytexts (talk) 22:10, 10 December 2010 (UTC)

Citations

Does anyone have more direct references to the stories? The way Nuwa is commonly represented does not fit the source documents, as far as I am aware. The Nuwa character is thought by some to be a tribal designation, as a creator or a goddess as typically portrayed. mamgeorge 20:00, 1 Jun 2005 (UTC)

There need not necessarily be a "source document", as Nuwa is a folk goddess, and a lot of legends are gleaned from folk sources. She is not a historical or litarary figure. Mandel 09:48, Jun 3, 2005 (UTC)

The conclusions that Nuwa is a creator, a goddess, a myth, or even feminine are all assumptions. The point of the documentation is to provide the basis for those assumptions. Others looking at the basis for the stories may uncover a more consistent conclusion. The classifications are ultimately misleading. mamgeorge 16:59, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

Although I did not originate this article, I provided specific details for the authors and books since the above posts. If you believe more is needed, please be specific on what exactly needs to be added beyond date, author, book, chapter, title, details. The two sources I could not identify I did not add; eventually they may need to be removed.

mamgeorge 21:18, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

Deletes

At the moment, there's no citation for anything in this article. As it stands, it should be deleted. PiCo 02:52, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

There are procedures and due process to do everything on wikipedia. Please use them. The article cannot be summarily blanked or deleted unless you put up a deletion request that people will vote on. I would suggest that first you use one of the templates available to request sources or documentation. I have no idea where the original contributors got their information, but I assume good faith that they did not make it up on their own, as I have also read similar information in many, many books that cover Chinese mythology. ፈቃደ (ውይይት) 14:02, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

I'm not suggesting AfD, but I am saying that this is a seriously weak article so long as it it has absolutely no references. PiCo 22:57, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

Ah.. Well I agree with you fully on that point, and someone should definitely take the time to look some of this stuff up and get the proper sources, preferably the contributors who first put it here...! But I have no doubts that it all could be sourced, it just looks weak without it... ፈቃደ (ውይይት) 00:29, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

Proposed

The stories in "wife", "creator", "maintainer" should be cited; preferably with the sources. The point of the dated references was to show (among other things) the development of this myth over time. Merely saying "it is said" could be a wrong or confused recollection. This is an encyclopedia article. Although one goal could be "catalog Nuwa myths", those wanting to understand the development of the myth may prefer "catalog Nuwa development as a myth".

Without citations on the supplied quotations, they become stories only. Perhaps unquoted stories should be removed? Is that what Pico (above) was intending? mamgeorge 16:59, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

Similarities

Similarities between Fuxi-Nuwa and Enki-Ninki of Sumerian mythology include the creation of man from clay, the serpentine features, the rescue of man from the flood, and the return of knowledge and kingship to man afterwards. Fuxi-Nuwa appear to be echoes of Sumerian lore. Both were also brother-sister and husband-wife as well. jdwilkins

I agree that is true in generalities. That can be broadened to include similarities to the Hebrew Noah, Egyptian Nun, Mesopotamian Ziusudra, Indian Manu, Europe Deucalion, etc. To effectively identify a literary pattern, a point by point comparison should be done on the relevant sources. That might be the subject of a new article. Note that the creation, clay, serpent, knowledge, flood, cycle has used to justify a both a Universal Tradition in religion, and a competing claim of Global Archetypes in Psychology. mamgeorge 16:59, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

Dating

Eiorgiomugini, I see your point. Some of the dates refer to the individual, some to the dynasty (because a date for the person is not available). I can eplicitly change that.

I do not know what "bitter" referes to in your edit description.

Thanks, mamgeorge 14:07, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

Character Relationships?

Just as a point of interest on correspondence between Chinese antiquity and the Biblical accounts, the Chinese character for SHIP (large sea-going vessel) is made up of the pictographs for "eight persons" and "boat" which corresponds to the Bible account of 8 persons (Noah, his wife, 3 sons, their wives) that survived a global deluge in an ark.

Anonymous, thank you for your contribution. I am intrigued by the possibility you present here, however, I have reason to question that derivation.

The character 船 [chuan2] boat, is considered to be made up of the characters 舟 [zhou1] boat, and [yan3] divided outlets. Yan3 is itself made up of 八 [ba1] eight, and 口 [kou3] mouth, which makes sense for your suggestion. Here, however, the ba1 character is apparantly used in the sense to divide, as in 分 [fen1] to divide. In this case, ba1 means divide with a 刀 [dao1] knife. I base this on Weigers "Chinese Characters" (ISBN 0486-213218) now scanned in google books. If you have a more detailed etymolgy, or a reference indicating a more reliable derivation, please describe it.

Another possible link to Noah based on the characters may possibly be found in the phonetic sound of the name of Nuwa (compared to the sound of the name in Hebrew, Hindi, Egyptian, Aztec versions of the story, et. al.).

Additionally, Noah is often linked to Fuxi, whose etymology "may" have relationship to the characters for "rest"; this happens to be the Hebrew meaning of of the word Noah. There are several extra threads of analysis here; such as the links between their serpentine appearance to other flood myths, the "dog head" element related to other myths, etc. While these seem tantalizing possibilities, in my opinion these links are too tenuous to rely upon and require more evidence. mamgeorge 05:22, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

Actually this Myth(creation and what not) has all the reasons to be Chinese in origine- mainly because China is the "seat" of all major floods you can imagine, killing hundred of thousands a year for millenia! second contender would be the Amazon rain forest. There is rarely any drop of rain in the Middle East.

This story of Chinese origin was carried by ancient merchants to the West via Persia(present day Iran) where Jewish tribes were held captured in Babylon.

So next time do, please do question your preacher to cite any recorded evidence of any kind about major flood in their 40 square miles of desert covered Judaic land, or even mount Ararat area in Turkey if it ever happened at all-before you insinuate how the Chinese boat character suppose to signify. I can as well say it represents the 8 Chinese immortals riding the boat(zhou means very small boat actually) to attend the birthday party of Xi Huang Mu! Edluu (talk) 05:16, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

Nüwa and Deluge traditions

This isn't a Judeo-Christian encyclopedia. The wording in this section assumes stories told in Genesis is the originator of the legends of other cultures. It needs to be reworded or taken out completely.

Are you sure you meant that to apply to the section "Nüwa and Deluge traditions"? I can possibly see your point in the "Is Nüwa related to Noah?" section, but even that begins with a caveat. The paragraph starting, "Those who read the Bible literally..." may fit better in another article; for that could allow a more formal, detailed, and consistant treatment (perhaps in Deluge traditions?). Incidentally, that phrase "Those who read the Bible literally" was not an assumption of the readers at all; it is in itself a caveat. The only unequivocal assumptions were in the phrase "The wording in this section assumes...". mamgeorge 04:34, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

The "Nüwa and Deluge traditions" section in general focuses primarily on Judeo-Christian mythology. It's also utterly ridiculous. It entirely confuses the nature of the various Nüwa myths- namely that they are completely separate myths. In one story Nüwa saves the earth from a catastrophe (not a global flood, but a general imbalance of nature, with flooding as one symptom), and only in later myths is she the wife of Fuxi.--128.119.7.141 (talk) 05:27, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

Is that so? I also see the mentioning of pre-Christian and non-European mythology. And there is a proposition in the paragraph on the Mythological connections in the article that says: 'while in the myth of Nüwa the creation of mankind is not linked to any preceding disaster and disconnected from the 'repair of heaven' motive,' while the Wiki-article on Fu Xi does mention a preceding disaster. Yuhana (talk) 21:59, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Nu wa.jpg

Image:Nu wa.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.

BetacommandBot 04:44, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

merge Nu Wa Niang Niang

merge. Nu Wa Niang Niang was established for the role of Nüwa in Fengshen Yanyi. Do we really need it? Even though we may need to establish a so specific article, the title does not limit its scope to Fengshen Yanyi. Maybe Nüwa (Fengshen Yanyi) will be better. --Neo-Jay 00:29, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

Nüwa and Noah?

Is "'Is Nüwa related to Noah?'" really an appropriate subheading for this section? Of the four bullet points listed, only of them has anything to do with Noah at all. Flutterman (talk) 02:21, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

Food for thought: Though NüWa to Noah is a stretch from current pronunciations there is an interesting conveluted inverse relation of these two stories. One is systematic, fulfilling a need based on the design of sexual reproduction and distinction. The other with little direction, presuming sexual inovation even to the supernatural realm. It seems the story was reversed to couch racial superiority beliefs.

The Bible says - God creates man from the dust

woman from his side

NuWa - Woman in the form of a goddess.

HUA REN from her side

all others from the dust.

Descriptions of NuWa further contrivances; when science has shown that there is greater variation within "races" than between them (indicating the superficiality of our usage of the term "race") this is one the many remnants to excuse persecution on those that are different.

NuWa, instead of being the woman-god, could be the woman created by God. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Wair2begin (talk • contribs) 23:04, 11 November 2009 (UTC)

The Nüwa Legend and The Noah Flood

The following material was recently added in good faith but unfortunately it does not seem to meet Wikipedia's requirements for reliable sources. I've moved it here to the talk page, as the new editor has obviously put a lot of work into this and similar contributions but needs some guidance from more experienced editors with style, sourcing, original research etc. Thanks.—Machine Elf ¹⁷³⁵ 01:29, 8 March 2011 (UTC)

Opps, another editor beat me to it... ah well.—Machine Elf ¹⁷³⁵ 01:40, 8 March 2011 (UTC)

I've also moved the contributions made to Noah's Ark and Pangu to a subsections here and here. The contributions to Flood myth and Queen of the South seemed to be mostly similar to what's already here, but if anything is needed from them, follow those links; or just use the View History tab at the Flood myth and Queen of the South (biblical reference) articles... Nothing's ever really deleted from Wikipedia, so thanks for bearing with us.—Machine Elf ¹⁷³⁵ 02:22, 8 March 2011 (UTC)

Actually, I removed it for one more reason, it is purely copy-and-paste from the unreliable source, without the translated sources in the very top of that. If it is to stay, it needed a total revamp, rewritten for not being a complete WP:copyvio. —Preceding signed comment added by MythSearcher^talk 03:16, 8 March 2011 (UTC)

---

I) Earlier written records of Nüwa Legend

From the earlier written records, we only could find the following story of Nüwa： Repaired the heavens; Established the four corners of the earth (The Ends of the Earth); Killed the black Dragon; Stopped The Big Flood.

We could find that Nüwa was not the creator of Human Beings.

Later, mankind had keep enriching Nüwa’s stories by adding in more fancies. Nüwa is presented differently in so many myths; it is not accurate to tie her down as a creator, mother. Depending on the myths, she is responsible for being a wife, sister, man, tribal leader (or even emperor), creator, maintainer, etc. It is not clear from the evidence which view came first. Regardless of the origins, most myths present Nüwa as female in a procreative role after a calamity.

II) Nüwa and Noah

From Nüwa’s story, we knew there was a big flood. This flood was exactly the same flood of Noah (Genesis 6). The waters were from the heavens. Genesis 7:11 In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, on the seventeenth day of the second month--on that day all the springs of the great deep burst forth, and the floodgates of the heavens were opened. 12 And rain fell on the earth forty days and forty nights.

III) Nüwa and Angel

From China Legend, Nüwa appeared only after Pangu opened up the universe. Nüwa was created by Pangu. We can consider Pangu to be God, and Nüwa to be an Angel created by God. Nüwa carried out God’s tasks after The Big Flood. The main tasks of Nüwa were to work for God: to repair the heavens; to establish the four corners of the earth (The ends of the Earth); to kill the black dragon; to stop the flood. Genesis 8:2 Now the springs of the deep and the floodgates of the heavens had been closed, and the rain had stopped falling from the sky.

The Bible uses the terms מלאך אלהים (mal'akh Elohim; messenger of God), מלאך יהוה (mal'akh YHWH; messenger of the Lord), בני אלהים (b'nai Elohim; sons of God) and הקודשים (ha-qodeshim; the holy ones) to refer to beings traditionally interpreted as angels.

Daniel is the first biblical figure to refer to individual angels by name. The writer includes the names Gabriel (God's primary messenger) in Daniel 9:21 and Michael (the holy fighter) in Daniel 10:13. These are part of Daniel's apocalyptic visions and are an important part of all apocalyptic literature. Angels are created by God, and carrying out God's tasks "praise ye Him, all His angels: praise ye Him, all His hosts... for He spoke and they were made. He commanded and they were created..." (Psalms 148:2-5; Colossians 1:16).

IV) Nüwa and The Four Corners of the Earth (The Ends of the Earth)

According Nüwa Legend, after The Big Flood, Nüwa established The Four Corners of the Earth (In Chinese”立四极”).

After Nüwa finishing her tasks, (In Chinese苍天补，四极正；淫水涸，冀州平；狡虫死，颛民生; 背方州，抱圆天), Heavens repaired; The Four Corners of the Earth (The Ends of the Earth) established; Flood water dried; China became peaceful; Evil animals died; Good people grew; Then She left Square Earth and enfolded (went to) Round Heaven.

背（Bei） means “leave”; such as: 背井离乡（Bei Jing Li Xiang）（leave one’s native home） 抱（Bao） means “enfold”. Here it means “go to”.

In ancient Chinese culture, Chinese thought: “Heaven was high and round – Round Heaven; and the earth was low and rectangular – Square Earth”

The Bible uses the phrase "the ends of the earth" many times. (1) In Psalm 65:5 the ends of the earth are parallel to the farthest sea. (2) Isaiah 41:5 which says, "The islands have seen it and fear; the ends of the earth tremble. They approach and come forward;" Here islands are considered to be synonymous with, or near the ends of the earth. The earth was surrounded by water, but there were islands at the edge of the world where the sky met the sea. (3) Revelations 7:1 and 20:8 it mentions the four corners of the earth.

The descendants of Shem spread out over North and East; they arrived at East Corner and North Corner; The descendants of Japheth spread out over West; they arrived at West Corner. The descendants of Ham spread out over South; they arrived at South Corner. They established countries at the Ends of the Earth.

V) Nüwa and The Queen of the South

According Nüwa Legend, after The Big Flood, Nüwa carried out God's tasks to establish The Four Corners of the Earth (The Ends of the Earth) (In Chinese”立四极”).

According to "Matthew 12:42 The queen of the South will rise at the judgment with this generation and condemn it; for she came from the ends of the earth to listen to Solomon's wisdom, and now one greater than Solomon is here." Before The Queen of the South rises at the Judgment, She came from the Ends of the Earth (Four Corners of the Earth). She was an angel of God. She carried out God's tasks at The Ends of the Earth.

Nüwa and The Queen of the South was the same angel created by God; and they carried out God’s same tasks.

VI) The name of Nüwa “女娲”came from"女娃" (Pronounce: Nüwa)

In ancient China, men and women did not have name.

For an example, Liu Bang(256BC-195BC), the first emperor of Han Dynasty, his original name was Liu Ji (Ji means the third son of the family). Liu Bang had two brothers: Liu Bo (Bo means the first son of the family); Liu Zhong (Zhong means the second son of the family). Another example, the very famous story of Meng Jiang Nu cried for the Great Wall in Qin Dynasty. Meng Jiang Nu did not have her name too. Jiang was the family name, Meng meant the first child in the family. Meng Jiang Nu meant the first daughter of Jiang’s family.

The pronunciations of Chinese words “女娲” and “女娃” are same --- Nüwa. “女娃" (Pronounce: Nüwa）originally meant “Beautiful lady”. At first Nüwa did not have a name; People called her "女娃" (Pronounce: Nüwa), meant “Beautiful lady”. Later some people thought that as the Goddess, Nüwa must have her own name, so they specially invented a Chinese character “娲” (Pronounce: wa) for her. After that, Nüwa had her own name "女娲" (Pronounce: Nüwa) instead of “女娃” (Pronounce: Nüwa).

The Nüwa Legend and The Big Flood

([1])

I) Earlier written records of Nüwa’s story

The earliest written story of Nüwa was from < Liezi, chapter 5: "Questions of Tang" (卷第五 汤问篇)> (475 - 221 BC) author: Lie Yukou.

Paragraph 1: "Nüwa repairs the heavens" Describes Nüwa repairing the imperfect heavens. Nüwa uses five colored stones to repair the heavens, cut the legs of a tortoise and use them as struts to establish the four corners of the earth(The Ends of the Earth).

In the book: <Huainanzi, chapter 6: Lanmingxun (览冥训)> (179 - 122 BC) author: Liu An, "Nüwa Mended the Sky": In remote antiquity, the four corners collapsed, and the earth descended into chaos: the firmament was no longer able to cover everything, and the earth was no longer able to support itself; fire burned wild, and waters flooded the land. Fierce beasts ate common people, and ferocious birds attacked the old and the weak. Hence, Nüwa tempered the five-colored stone to mend the heavens, cut off the feet of the great turtle to establish the four corners of the Earth (The Ends of the Earth), killed the black dragon to help the earth, and gathered the ash of reed to stop the flood. After Nüwa finishing her tasks: Heavens repaired; The Four Corners of the Earth established; Flood water dried; China became peaceful; Evil animals died; Good people grew; Then Nüwa left Square Earth, enfolded (went to) Round Heaven.

(In Chinese《淮南子•览冥训》：往古之时，四极废，九州岛裂，天不兼覆，地不周载，火滥（lǎn）焱而不灭，水浩洋而不息，猛兽食颛民，鸷鸟攫老弱。于是,女娲炼五色石以补苍天，断鳌足以立四极，杀黑龙以济冀州，积芦灰以止淫水。苍天补，四极正；淫水涸，冀州平；狡虫死，颛民生; 背方州，抱圆天。)

From the earlier written records, we only could find the following story of Nüwa： Repaired the heavens; Established the four corners of the earth (The Ends of the Earth); Killed the black Dragon; Stopped The Big Flood. We could find that Nüwa was not the creator of Human Beings.

Later, mankind had keep enriching Nüwa’s stories by adding in more fancies. Nüwa is presented differently in so many myths; it is not accurate to tie her down as a creator, mother. Depending on the myths, she is responsible for being a wife, sister, man, tribal leader (or even emperor), creator, maintainer, etc. It is not clear from the evidence which view came first. Regardless of the origins, most myths present Nüwa as female in a procreative role after a calamity.

II) Nüwa and Noah

From Nüwa’s story, we knew there was a big flood. This flood was exactly the same flood of Noah (Genesis 6). The waters were from the heavens.

Pangu and The Beginning (Genesis)

According to the Bible, the universe was formless and empty and darkness. It was God who created universe (the heavens and the earth).

Genesis 1: In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.

According to Pangu Legend, the universe was formless. It was Pangu who started the universe.