Talk:Nanking Massacre

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to: navigation, search
Former good article nominee Nanking Massacre was a Warfare good articles nominee, but did not meet the good article criteria at the time. There are suggestions below for improving the article. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake.
April 14, 2009 Good article nominee Not listed

Death toll estimate[edit]

I think we should make the death toll claim at the start of the article, listed as over 200,000 because while most Chinese claim that over 300,000 were killed, many western historicans put the number at 200,000 to 250,000. I think it would be much more unbiased to do so, but since this article is locked, I need permission. In my opinion the I believe 200,000 were killed, because ten years before the massacre, the Nanking incident happened, in which a massive riot broke out against foreign residents in Nanking by Communists and Nationalist: — Preceding unsigned comment added by Graylandertagger (talkcontribs) 02:01, 13 April 2014 (UTC)

Please cite sources. Shii (tock) 14:58, 29 May 2014 (UTC)
Look at Archive 8 on this page. There was a long discussion on this topic just a few months ago. LionMans Account (talk) 16:56, 29 May 2014 (UTC)
I'm not challenging the discussion there, just citing an academic source. If you have a source that says the academic consensus is something else, we can put it there too. Shii (tock) 21:41, 29 May 2014 (UTC)
While the discussion in Archive 8 became extremely heated at times, consensus was eventually reached based on principally on a composite of the extensive historiographical study of Bob Tadashi Wakabayashi, as well as several noted Chinese historians who cite figures up to 300k. In particular, I should add that the figure of 7,540 for primary source estimates appears to be entirely spurious, and not representative of the majority of primary source estimates (which typically range from 50k-300k). In the same talk page discussion, consensus was reached that while Wakabayashi cites the general scholarly consensus as being a range of 40k-200k, it was also fundamentally inaccurate to attribute the figure of 300k to the Chinese government alone, rather than the conclusion of Chinese scholarship, which is the reason for a figure of 40k-300k, though I do not recall entirely whether the discussion was completely settled. Whatever the case, it can be definitively be said from not only the conclusions reached the talk page discussion, Wakabayashi's study, but also from the scholarly consensus indicated by this pages' sources and those listed on the Estimates_of_the_death_toll_for_the_Nanking_Massacre page that while figures over 200k are to some degree subject to suspicion, that a figure as low as 100k would definitely be excluding a very significant portion of the scholarly consensus on Nanjing Massacre historiography. Finally, also regardless of the final range to be selected, I believe it was the consensus that whether 300k is or is not included in the 200k range or classed as a separate outlier, that classing the 300k figure as that of the Chinese government alone, rather than Chinese scholarly consensus, was also inappropriate.Zmflavius (talk) 22:17, 29 May 2014 (UTC)
Can we add citations to that effect? I don't think it's helpful to readers to simply have a discussion without adding the conclusion to the page. The current page has the statement "300,000 people dead" without any explanation about where this figure came from; I was attempting to elucidate. Shii (tock) 23:00, 29 May 2014 (UTC)
I think that would be quite helpful, and have added the relevant figures accordingly.Zmflavius (talk) 01:47, 30 May 2014 (UTC)

Disturbing images[edit]

There were complaints some time ago that some of the images in this article are disturbing. Disturbing enough that some find it difficult to read the text of the adjoining section. I'm not in favor of removing the images, but would it be appropriate to "collapse" them, providing text saying something like?

Spiel496 (talk) 18:44, 23 June 2014 (UTC)

I could not find any Wiki guideline on disturbing images but your suggestion is very useful and would have my support. Maybe there's a Wiki Project that deals with images and let them look into this. STSC (talk) 13:14, 24 June 2014 (UTC)
I appreciate your support. My searching came up empty as well. A search of the Talk pages for the phrase "disturbing images" reveals several dead-end discussions, typically including the mantra WP:NOTCENSORED, which misses the point in my opinion. The issue isn't that the content is objectionable; of course the Nanjing massacre was objectionable. The issue is that an image can cause damage before a person has a chance to react. Collapsing the image seems like it could solve the problem. Spiel496 (talk) 00:06, 25 June 2014 (UTC)
There's little reason to not display these accompanying images and related commentary as is, other than to avoid purportedly harming sensitivities. I find that the images provide a clear informative purpose to the nature of the topic, which should not be hidden behind some extra "step" for this. Wikipedia:No disclaimers in articles applies to this suggestion. --Cold Season (talk) 01:01, 26 June 2014 (UTC)