Talk:Napoleon

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Good article Napoleon has been listed as one of the History good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do so. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can reassess it.
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This Week's Article for Improvement: French Revolutionary Wars[edit]

French Revolutionary Wars has been nominated by WP:TAFI. All contributions improving this article welcome! Cheers, walk victor falk talk 04:11, 19 May 2014 (UTC)

General[edit]

Napoleon had a rank, he was not just some civilian who became an emperor. He spent some time in a military academy and was a lieutenant and from his actions at Toulon got promoted to general. So in this article there should be the words Rank: General in the info about the person box. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.133.149.244 (talk) 09:42, 23 May 2014 (UTC)

Significance[edit]

If you cannot see the significance of this section, I have doubts of you understanding history. Details from lesser known facts can explain a lot. In the article the word conscript is not mentioned anywhere, although it is a key to what happened in Western-Europe under Napoleon. The same is true for Den Helder, according to Napoleon the Gibraltar of the north.

End September 1811 Napoleon visited the former Kingdom of Holland; he arrived in Vlissingen, a strategic city he had visited twice before (in 1803 and 1810). In Antwerp he met with his wife. Then they traveled north to the fortified cities of Willemstad and Hellevoetsluis. He met with general Dirk van Hogendorp, who would become a friend (and later mentioned as one of the few in Napoleon's will). On 9 October he arrived in Amsterdam, the third capital of his empire and stayed a fortnight in the Royal Palace of Amsterdam, used by King Louis Bonaparte who had to leave Holland in 1810, forced by his brother. He visited several wharfs, the fortifications on Pampus, the Trippenhuis and Den Helder, changing the port in the most important naval base in the north. Because of a lack of funds earlier that year 4.000 Dutch fishermen were forced (through conscript) to join the fleet.[1] Vice-admiral Jan Willem de Winter joined him to Texel, and discussed the possibilities to keep the English away from the Dutch coast.

  1. ^ C.F. Gijsberti Hodenpijl (1904) Napoleon in Holland, p. 119,

Taksen (talk) 07:14, 12 August 2014 (UTC)

Sorry, in what you write I cannot see any explaination, just a personal attack to myself in the first sentence. I repeat the question: why should we insert in a general article about Napoleon particulars as his visits to dutch fortifications, a sojourn in the royal palace of Amsterdam, etc. ? These infos can find their place in a biography of the Emperor, or in an article devoted to the relation between Napoleon and Holland (the same subject of the book that you referenced). During his life the emperor was everywhere in Europe (just yesterday night I was reading about a visit of him on the Lake of Lugano, important in the swiss context, but certainly not worth of being reported here), so that inserting this info here is just giving undue weight to it with respect to other trips, sojourns in buildings, etc. The info about the conscript system can be inserted in the article in a general context. Alex2006 (talk) 07:36, 12 August 2014 (UTC)
  • There is a lack in the article about the year 1811. It goes almost straight from his marriage to Russia. Napoleon, as a army commander, was highly interested in any kind of fortifications. I don't think I have to explain that. I prefer facts to show that.
  • I am interested in details not in general information. Den Helder, Van Hogendorp, Napoleon's brother Louis, king of Holland, seem not important enough, so the article stays superficial.
  • Please mention the conscript somewhere in the article, a key element, which caused riots and protest, not only in Holland. I hope you will be able to find more information on that subject. The Wikipedia article has only one sentence on the subject, very superficial. Taksen (talk) 09:17, 12 August 2014 (UTC)
I already understood that you are interested in details, :-) but this is the exactly the problem: the fact that we write "details" between his marriage and the expedition of Russia, gives automatically to these details (which, as I wrote, could find their place in a more focused article) undue weight with respect to other happenings, whose historic significance is enormous. And cannot be reason enough to insert these details in the article, the fact that in Napoleon's life there is a "hole" in year 1811: the same "holes" occur more or less in each biographic article.
The main problem is that this is a general article, and as such it should concentrate on the most important facts: but there is always the possibility of write ancillary articles. About the conscript system, for sure it deserves a place: I just read that in Switzerland the Eidgenossen shortly before Russia had to contribute to the French army with 40,000 men, an enormous number which explains the hostility against France. Let's now wait for the opinion of some other user. Alex2006 (talk) 09:55, 12 August 2014 (UTC)
Alex2006 is right. we have strict limits on how much we can cover. Additional details appear in the biographies which each run 500 or more pages (Dwyer 2013 is the latest at 1500 pages--he only gives 7 pages to 1811 because the 365 days that year were not very important for Napoleon --not compared to 1812, which get 60 pages). Most bios of Napoleon have over 10x the space we have here. So we select info from the top down. We ALSO look at what the many reliable biographers have chosen to write about. Did he visit your hometown--how nice and you can add that into the article on that town. Rjensen (talk) 10:30, 12 August 2014 (UTC)
I agree with Alex and Rjensen; an encyclopedia article is different from a biography. Even a biography cannot include every incident in the subject's life, and an encyclopedia article cannot include every incident that any biographer has seen fit to mention. Are we going to list every trip Napoleon ever took throughout his life in this article? Are we going to describe every time he went to the theatre, what show was performed, and who was in the lead roles? (Napoleon was quite an avid theatre-goer, so that would be a long section.) We have no reason to believe that this particular visit to Holland was especially significant relative to other incidents in his life, and we should not give it undue emphasis. --R'n'B (call me Russ) 16:02, 12 August 2014 (UTC)


Requested move 16 September 2014[edit]

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: No move per WP:SNOWBALL and WP:CONCISE, among others. (non-admin closure) Red Slash 02:46, 18 September 2014 (UTC)



NapoleonNapoleon Bonaparte – Instead of just "Napoleon", shouldn't this article be titled to reflect his full name? It is more specific, and most of our history articles have a person's first and last name. Writing Enthusiast 18:50, 16 September 2014 (UTC)

Survey[edit]

Feel free to state your position on the renaming proposal by beginning a new line in this section with *'''Support''' or *'''Oppose''', then sign your comment with ~~~~. Since polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account Wikipedia's policy on article titles.
  • Oppose because we use for monarchs only first names (regnal names)--Yopie (talk) 23:45, 16 September 2014 (UTC)
Good idea. Writing Enthusiast 02:49, 17 September 2014 (UTC)
Actually that may well be a good idea. The current title looks highly amateurish, almost childish, like having an article entitled "Lenin", at first sight mild support for Napoleon I as a WP:NATURAL improvement in precision. As long as Napoleon still redirects there. In ictu oculi (talk) 03:10, 17 September 2014 (UTC)
  • Oppose and move to Napoleon I as he was known during the height of his power. Blaue Max (talk) 04:36, 17 September 2014 (UTC)
  • Oppose and keep the way it is. That's how scholars and general readers know him. Rjensen (talk) 04:56, 17 September 2014 (UTC)
  • Oppose he would be Napoleon I if you followed other French monarchs; WP:UCN he is Napoleon without "Bonaparte" or "I", and for which we don't have to choose between "Bonaparte" or "I" -- 70.51.46.146 (talk) 05:59, 17 September 2014 (UTC)
  • Oppose any move. Napoleon is the common name. If it ain't broke, don't fix it. Calidum Talk To Me 11:35, 17 September 2014 (UTC)
  • Mon Dieu! Contre, Gregkaye 14:08, 17 September 2014 (UTC)

Discussion[edit]

Any additional comments:

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Lead sentence and Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Biographies[edit]

Why is the lead first sentence not following WP:FULLNAME in this bio? We don't have Francois Mitterand (French: François Mitterrand), why should this article be different.

Secondly, what do we record the birth name as? Italian (in use on Corsica), Corsican or later French version. I see Nabulione di Buonaparte cited as Corsican birth name is some sources. Lepage French Fortifications, 1715-1815: An Illustrated History p.17 "Nabulione di Buonaparte (in Corsican), who later adopted the more French-sounding Napoléon Bonaparte, was born in Ajaccio (Corsica)...", but is there such a thing as a Ajaccio parish church birth/christening registry for Bonaparte? One would assume that if the family had land a parish priest on Corsica would record the name per Italian Napoleone di Buonaparte - which seems more likely from an Italian Lombard family, and should be in better sources than the above. Whatever whether French, Corsican or Italian he wasn't born English, so the current lead is out of step with WP:FULLNAME. In ictu oculi (talk) 23:43, 16 September 2014 (UTC)

More in line with MOS BIO then would be: In ictu oculi (talk) 03:25, 17 September 2014 (UTC)

Napoléon Bonaparte (born Napoleone di Buonaparte; 15 August 1769 – 5 May 1821) was a French military and political leader who rose to prominence during the latter stages of the French Revolution and its associated wars in Europe.

Source?[edit]

"He won the large majority of his battles and seized control of most of continental Europe in a quest for personal power and to spread the ideals of the French Revolution."

Can we get a source for this qualification? 82.217.116.224 (talk) 15:23, 6 October 2014 (UTC)

It's standard in the textbooks such as 1) Wallbank Civilization--past and present - Page 134: "Motivated primarily by personal ambition, Napoleon was the unwitting instrument for the spread of French revolutionary ideals throughout Europe." 2) Loubere Nineteenth-century Europe Page 23 "there was still the war to win and enlightened ideals and institutions to spread abroad. ... mission that Napoleon assigned himself when he became the first consul in 1800 and, then, in 1804, the emperor of France. As he moved from one military victory to another, his missionary zeal diminished while his personal ambition grew." Rjensen (talk) 16:37, 6 October 2014 (UTC)