Talk:Narayana Guru

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File:Narayana Guru.jpg Nominated for Deletion[edit]

Icon Now Commons orange.svg An image used in this article, File:Narayana Guru.jpg, has been nominated for deletion at Wikimedia Commons for the following reason: Deletion requests June 2011
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I am planning to cut this article back massively unless some citations of reliable sources turn up soon. As things stand, the majority of it is hopelessly unencyclopedic. I'll hang off for another 2 or 3 weeks but after that, well, my editorial red pen will be taken to pretty much anything that is not cited. - Sitush (talk) 23:57, 26 July 2011 (UTC)

Name, title, NPOV[edit]

Throughout most of this article, Narayana is referred to as "Guru", which, if I understand correctly, is a title, rather than a name, and adds to the hagiographic tone of the article. Per WP:HONORIFIC, I think he should be called only by his surname, after the first mention. Would that be "Nārāyana"? (I ask only because I am not very familiar with Indian naming conventions.) More generally, the article strikes me as more reverential than encyclopedic. Using his name, rather than "Guru", will not fix that, but it seems like a good start. Peter Chastain (talk) 07:14, 23 December 2011 (UTC)

Dubious source[edit]

Can someone explain why Guru- The Social Philosopher of Kerala this is a reliable source? I note that the home page does not even function correctly, there is no indication of authority and the dedicated nature of the website concerns me - hagiographic etc. - Sitush (talk) 17:20, 15 August 2012 (UTC)

We now have a heap of citations that are clearly based on a dependent (rather than independent) source. This needs to change and it needs to changes pronto, otherwise the cites are likely to be deleted. - Sitush (talk) 20:58, 10 June 2013 (UTC)

Odd phrasing[edit]

user talk page discussion about this copied to this page.

You reverted to your revision on Narayana Guru undoing ~6 editors and ~20 edits done over ~30 days. I see that you have re-inserted one of the two content addition I had done. Is this content and reference (from academic book published by Oxford Univ. Press) not to be retained? Particularly when that article is in need of reliable sources! Thanks. --AmritasyaPutra 14:04, 9 September 2014 (UTC)

If you can find a way to do it without breaching WP:NPOV then of course it can be retained. I was just about to try to find a copy of the book. What you cannot do is state as fact something that is disputed by reliable sources, and that is what had been done. - Sitush (talk) 14:23, 9 September 2014 (UTC)
Oh, and you need to abide by WP:CITEVAR also. - Sitush (talk) 14:25, 9 September 2014 (UTC)
That book is secondary reliable source from academic publication. Can you please provide the reliable source it contradicts? I will abide by WP:CITEVAR. Thanks. --AmritasyaPutra 18:29, 9 September 2014 (UTC)
This discussion belongs in the thread I opened at the article talk page. As far as d.o.b. is concerned, there is already a reliable source that contradicts it, specifically pointing out that the suggested dates vary. - Sitush (talk) 18:31, 9 September 2014 (UTC)
The edit made no changes to d.o.b. I will respond to the other concern raised on the talk page. Regards. --AmritasyaPutra 00:36, 10 September 2014 (UTC)

──────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────── This is odd stuff. What is a "middle peasant"? Why does being the son of one influence his following of Vedanta and his decision to teach etc? It makes no obvious sense. - Sitush (talk) 14:26, 9 September 2014 (UTC)

I cannot see the source, either, so it may be that we'll need a quotation if the significance can be proven at all. - Sitush (talk) 14:55, 9 September 2014 (UTC)
It conveys a simple/ordinary peasant. If 'middle' is not clear we may simply write "a peasant". It does not say that being the son of peasant influences his following of Vedanta and his decision to teach, that itself is an inference. In fact, with that edit I deleted the dubious "He appears in turn to have" clause that was not sourced inline, that has been put back when this content addition was reverted. Do you want me to provide a quotation (the content and reference stands deleted as of now)? It is referenced to a secondary reliable source of Oxford University Press and it does not contradict any other reliable source like you said before. Regards. --AmritasyaPutra 00:55, 10 September 2014 (UTC)
I will add the content without using the "middle" word as discussed here. Thank you. --AmritasyaPutraT 04:25, 16 September 2014 (UTC)
Yes check.svg Done --AmritasyaPutraT 04:49, 18 September 2014 (UTC)
Sorry, I missed these replies - got into stuff elsewhere. I'll take a look now. - Sitush (talk) 15:36, 18 September 2014 (UTC)
@AmritasyaPutra:I tweaked it a bit and then looked to add an authorlink to the citation, which is when I spotted Jean Drèze. That guy has no training in the subject matter at all, from what I can see. As such, he is not reliable for this material. - Sitush (talk) 15:44, 18 September 2014 (UTC)
@Sitush: Okay, no problem about that, but it does come from a publication of good reputation, he is an exceptional scholar in his field and no blemishes as such. Isn't that sufficient enough for a simple non-contentious addition? I know you have been around longer and perhaps know it better too. The intention is not to "argue". --AmritasyaPutraT 17:03, 18 September 2014 (UTC)
I am concerned about it because, even today, literacy is an concern in India. Although there certainly were some educated poor people, the idea of a peasant being educated in any meaningful sense back then seems remote. I'll have to check on this, though, as I know that the Brits did encourage at least some education for some people. Can you read Dutch? I'm wondering whether @Drmies: might be able to help with a translation, just to make sure of the term that Drèze is using. - Sitush (talk) 17:24, 18 September 2014 (UTC)
  • I made a few tweaks, but Dreze's book is published by Clarendon and it's called "Indian Development: Selected Regional Perspectives". (Actually, it appears to be an edited collection.) Why would this book be in Dutch? Or is there an article in it in Dutch? Note that I just corrected the very first citation in the article, where an essay in an edited collection was cited as if reference was made to a monograph. Drmies (talk) 18:18, 18 September 2014 (UTC)
  • Thanks, Drmies. There are, as so often, lots of problems with the article but as far as the Dreze source goes, I can't see it at all and the citation had "lang=nl" in it. Looks like I may have wasted your time, sorry. - Sitush (talk) 20:06, 18 September 2014 (UTC)
  • No apology necessary, Sitush. Good luck keeping Scotland--if you want it, your third-to-last colony. (I'm not counting Milton Keynes, of course.) Drmies (talk) 22:21, 18 September 2014 (UTC)
@Sitush: @Drmies:, Jean Dreze and Amartya Sen are the editors. "Dutch" was a mistake, it is in English. The content I had added falls in Chapter 4 titled "On Kerala's Development Achievements" written by V K Ramachandran. --AmritasyaPutraT 01:07, 19 September 2014 (UTC)
Ah, now we are getting somewhere. The citation should read {{cite book|editor1-last=Drèze|editor1-first=Jean|editor2-last=Sen|editor2-first=Amartya|editor1-link=Jean Drèze|editor2-link=Amartya Sen|chapter=On Kerala's Development Achievements|first=V. K. |last=Ramachandran|title=Indian development: selected regional perspectives|publisher=Oxford University Press|location=Delhi and New York|year=1997|isbn=0-19-829204-X|page=309}}. I'll add that now and try to track down stuff on/by Ramachandran. - Sitush (talk) 10:34, 19 September 2014 (UTC)
@Sitush: thanks. --AmritasyaPutraT 12:19, 19 September 2014 (UTC)