Talk:Narcissistic personality disorder

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Deceptiveness

Editors, please devote some space to the very important issue of deceptiveness surrounding narcissism, and as discussed in the DSM more broadly.

Framed in general terms, there are different ramifications of deceptivenss. It can be purposeless (pathological lying). It can be for the maintenance of claims about the self (narcissism). Or a pattern of deception can become a covert goal indirectly reinforcing beliefs about the self. (narcissism, serial infidelity, paranoia, sociopathy, other forms of predation).

A person may directly or indirectly need to harm another person through deception, and narcissism is among those disorders in which that process occurs. For instance, serial infidelity stretching across partners seems in certain cases to be an indirect, covert goal that helps regulate shame. By cheating, the narcissist can view the partner as a dupe, allowing the demeaning beliefs that the narcissist must hold to become linked to a less shameful rationale.

Citations appreciated. —Preceding unsigned comment added by A.k.a. (talk • contribs) 17:27, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

Copyright problems with diagnostic criteria

The American Psychiatric Association has not released its Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders into public domain, but claims copyright. The Wikimedia Foundation has received a letter of complaint (Ticket:2010030910040817, for those with access) about the use of their diagnostic criteria in this and a number of other articles. Currently, this content is blanked pending investigation, which will last approximately one week. Please feel free to provide input at the copyright problems board listing during that time. Individuals with access to the books would be particularly welcome in helping to conduct the investigation. Assistance developing a plan to prevent misuse of the APA's material on Wikipedia projects would also be welcome. Thank you. Moonriddengirl ^(talk) 13:57, 11 March 2010 (UTC)

Copyright problem removed

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NPD vs ASPD/Psychopathy/Sociopathy

There has some debate on the differences between NPD and ASPD. Indeed, at first glance the disorders can appear quite similar. I think it might not be a bad idea to include some content in this article distinguishing NPD from ASPD (and two subcategories of ASPD: psychopathy and sociopathy) in order to emphasize the differences. From my understanding, people with NPD and people with ASPD share a few key symptoms such as interpersonal exploitation and lack of empathy, but people with NPD [and not ASPD] are relatively more narcissistic - albeit less crime-oriented and sadistic - than people with ASPD [but not NPD]. --82.31.164.172 (talk) 09:13, 16 September 2010 (UTC)

Cultural depictions

The character Eric Cartman from South Park would be a good addition to this section. The BP episode and the Fishsticks episode illustrate the delusions caused by NPD very well. I would have added him in myself but I was unable to find a good source to cite. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.109.108.21 (talk • contribs) 06:59, 27 December 2010

Interesting suggestion. I like the Fishsticks episode, with Cartman and his delusion about who wrote the joke, and Kanye West with his delusion that leave him convinced that there couldn't be a joke that he wouldn't immediately grasp. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.160.88.109 (talk) 03:17, 24 July 2011 (UTC)

npd and defense mechanisms

there needs to be a proper section on npd and defense mechanisms. Splitting gets a mention but others may feature such as projection. --Penbat (talk) 16:54, 9 January 2011 (UTC)

Invitation to edit

It is proposed that Narcissistic personality disorder be part of the trial of a new template; see the green strip at the top of Pain where it has been in place for a couple of months. The purpose of this project is to encourage readers to edit, while equipping them with the basic tools. If you perceive a problem with this, or have any suggestions for improvement, please discuss at the project talk page. --Anthonyhcole (talk) 10:02, 10 January 2011 (UTC)

gender differences

From my research on the subject I continuously see female suffers of NPD and male suffers as having completely different symptoms... within relationships and parenting. Perhaps different symptoms are presented in different degrees of severity. I think there is also a gender inequality where within the relationship there seems to be a higher degree of females with NPD. If it is equally balanced between males and females perhaps males are more likely to exhaust their NPD frustrations in the workforce whereas females are more likely to bring damage to romantic relationships. These are things that I have noticed in forums and documentaries and all sorts of places. It seems obvious to me that there are differences in gender roles but I can't find anything definitive which examines NPD specifically with regard to gender. If anyone could list some sources to cite from that would be greatly appreciated. I think it is very important NPD knowledge of course it is something that probably hasn't been thoroughly researched. — Preceding unsigned comment added by SomeUser5050 (talk • contribs) 18:40, 13 January 2011 (UTC)

Barack Obama

He is a textbook case of this disorder. 71.205.174.204 (talk) 04:51, 23 August 2011 (UTC)

Given that almost none of us here are qualified medical professionals, I really don't think it would be appropriate for any of us to hazard a diagnosis from afar. In addition, there are potential issues regarding WP:NPOV and WP:OR. LizFL (talk) 11:19, 23 August 2011 (UTC)

Not to mention the biography of living persons rules. And honestly, even if we were medical professionals, none of us could possibly hope to ever realisticly make this claim for anyone. Such a thing would require personal therapy and investigation, and such therapy would of course be a matter of confidentiality. Literally claiming personality disorders in living people, politician or not, has no place on this or any other page. 74.132.249.206 (talk) 23:33, 3 September 2011 (UTC)

An additional thought; even if such documents were released by the therapist, the breaking of confidentiality would immediatly nullify the use of those documents, as the therapist has taken a clearly non-neutral position. 74.132.249.206 (talk) 23:38, 3 September 2011 (UTC)

Dubious

Reading a section on Devaluation and Idealization, I found a much more...appropriate terming of this section of the article. "In child development idealization and devaluation are quite normal. During the childhood development stage, individuals become capable of perceiving others as complex structures, containing both good and bad components. If the development stage is interrupted (by early childhood trauma, for example), these defense mechanisms may persist into adulthood."

It shows the problem as a MAY, recognizing that these issues are very much complex and hard to ultimately determine. I think this would be a great way to frame the dubious paragraph at the bottom of "Causes." In addition, it phrases the effects of childhood influence in a far more cautious manner than the one presented on the NPD article. However, the words to rewrite this myself are elusive. Should I be able to, I will do so, but I'd encourage anyone else whos a bit better at stringing words together than I am. (my writing style being best described as "taking forever to say nothing.") 74.132.249.206 (talk) 23:28, 3 September 2011 (UTC)

Self love?

Narcissism seems to be confused with egomania with a lot of lay people and in Pop Psychology. Having studied Psychology and read a few text books on the topic, most Psychiatrists state that someone with NPD in fact hates themselves. Even though Humanist Psychology is written off by most academics because of there appears to be no theories in Humanism that have been proved factual, Humanism cannot actually lead to NPD. When people talk about narcissism in modern society that's not to say that NPD is rife. It just means that people are more self aware? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Spyingcactus (talk • contribs) 00:52, 28 November 2011 (UTC)

Narcissistic personality existing regardless of self esteem?

Narcissistic disorder being characterised by 'image obsession',that they must always appear good and strong people to everyone that observes them.

Many narcissistic traits are displayed in inferiority complexes ,and indeed I think people with low esteem are indeed more prone to it. People with overly-highself esteem tend to have more problems to do with recklessness (perceived invulnerability) rather than obsessively proving everyone that they're the best there is, after all, in their point of view, why should they have to prove it? Is there anything they have to prove anyway? Unlike Sinebot I'm not saying this is the rule, they may too afraid that they'll lose their perceived high status.

Removing a bit from entitlement

I'm removing the following from entitlement as just undue an dleaving just the first paragraph and a link to this article. There may be some use for it here. Dmcq (talk) 11:03, 3 February 2012 (UTC)

Narcissism

In clinical psychology and psychiatry, an unrealistic, exaggerated, or rigidly held sense of entitlement may be considered a symptom ofnarcissistic personality disorder, seen in those who 'because of early frustrations...arrogate to themselves the right to demand lifelong reimbursement from fate.

Narcissists hold unreasonable expectations of particularly favorable treatment and automatic compliance because they consider themselves special. Failure to comply is considered an attack on their superiority, and the perpetrator is considered an "awkward" or "difficult" person. Defiance of their will is a narcissistic injury that can trigger narcissistic rage.

'John Murray (1964) in his/her now classic paper of narcissism and the ego ideal' laid great 'emphasis on narcissistic entitlement and the manner in which this reflects infantile pregenital narcissistic fixations' - something which led in turn to the 'notion of the "narcissistic triad". The narcissistic triad involves (1) narcissistic entitlement, (2) disappointment and disillusionment at the frustration of narcissistic needs, and (3) narcissistic rage'.

Belief in the special, exceptional nature of 'narcissistic entitlement dictates that the patient has a right to life on his/her own terms...Such narcissistic entitlement plays a central role in borderline pathology, since the borderline sees himself as a special person with special rights and entitlements, such that any frustration of these entitled desires tends to undermine and often shatter the patient's self-esteem'.

In the wake of Kohut's self-psychology, a valorisation of narcissistic entitlement might be said to have taken place, as 'the age of "normal narcissism" and normal narcissistic entitlement had arrived...[a] child's right and entitlement that its parents are obliged to proffer at the least the minimum requisite "self-object" soothing...to allow the infant/child to develop a sense of self-cohesion'.