|WikiProject Hinduism||(Rated B-class, Mid-importance)|
- 1 Archives
- 2 Assumptions about this article
- 3 Requirements for listing a Nath guru on this page
- 4 Verifiable citations required
- 5 This article contains serious problems
- 6 Notes on the removal of the Mahendranath material
- 7 Protected
- 8 Baba Balak Nath, and Nandinatha Sampradaya
- 9 Shree Ratna Nath Math
- 10 Nath vs Natha
- 11 Nath vs Anath
- 12 Sources template
Assumptions about this article
This is a general article about the Naths and the Nath Sampradaya. Details which are specific to one panth or one teacher should go into a separate article about that panth or teacher. Historical facts and beliefs and practices which are common to all panths and teachers are what belongs in this article. If you disagree, please discuss here. —Adityanath 15:41, 18 March 2006 (UTC)
Requirements for listing a Nath guru on this page
Clearly, we cannot list every Nath in existance. We can only list Nath Gurus. And to be sure that they are Gurus, we need to have the name of their initiator, their panth or sub-sect, and some reason to believe their received parampara or succession. Self-proclaimed "Naths" need to provide some reason that they should be considered Nath Gurus. —Hanuman Das 02:27, 27 April 2006 (UTC)
Verifiable citations required
Other anon. editors should be aware that all information added must be verifiable by a citation to a book, journal, or reliable website. Thanks for any properly cited additions to the article. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 22.214.171.124 (talk) 19:16, 6 February 2007 (UTC).
This article contains serious problems
It has been extensively edited by the devotees of a fake nath Guru - an Englishman by the name of Miles - who went to India in the 1950s and re-invented himself as a Hindu spiritual teacher. There is no evidence that he was ever initiated into any branch of the Nath Sampradaya, and this page is largely under the control of a small group of westerners who have very little or no contact with the Indian forms of the tradition. They have a good deal of academic understanding of certain of the historical realities of the tradition, but they regularly edit the page to fool people into thinking that their non-initiated non-nath lineage is equivalent to the Indian forms.
At least one or two of the the people involved in the edit wars on this article as wikipedia admins are members of that sect, the "Interntional Nath Order."
I have removed the offending and highly controversial and unsubstantiated material - for example, a "guru" of the lineage being identified as such only by references to the works of his followers, or even his own works, leaving the article significantly more informative and objective. I believe that if you check the people who actually come along and re-insert the Mahendranath fake-nath materials into this article, you will discover several of them are INO members, who are attempting to propagate the cult of their particular un-official psuedo-nath fan club.
At the very least, these claims made are not verifiable because they cite self-published and self-referential sources. There is no objective evidence made for the status of the Mahendranath group as naths, other than references to the writing and claims of Mahendranath himself. Compare Da Free John's claims.
It's important that the conflict of interest issues in this edit war are noted, and a reference to the history of the page will indicate the severity of the administrative abuses that have been required to maintain this page in its uninformative, misleading and broken condition.
- This doesn't appear to be an accurate assessment of the article and shows a misunderstanding of what verifiability means in the Wikipedia context. I note with humor the assertion that "wikipedia admins are members of that sect". And the Illuminati too, I am sure :) Sivanath (talk) 05:07, 18 April 2008 (UTC)
Notes on the removal of the Mahendranath material
Note that, in accordance with the policy that "gurus" on these pages should be listed on the basis of their own claims or those of their followers. Clearly this contravenes several Wikipedia policies. As for the issue of Wikipedia admins being members of the International Nath Order sect - NAME DELETED FOR PRIVACY REASONS is a wikipedia admin and has clearly had quite some interest in the status of this page over the years.
Think it through. I think we can all clearly see that Mahendranath's inclusion on this page is inappropriate, given that there is no reference to his status as a Nath, never mind a nath Guru with a Parampara, other than his own writings.
We need to be consistent here, not allow one sect to insist that their guru be included when there is simply no reference to his status as a Guru, or as a Nath, other than his own writings and those of his followers.
I would note that this argument was deleted from the previous version of this talk page. I will continue to re-insert it as long as is necessary until it is answered. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 126.96.36.199 (talk) 23:30, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
I've currently fully protected this page for three days, due to recent edit warring. Some users have called some changes vandalism; I don't know if I can go that far, but it's clearly disruptive, hence the page protection. I notice that 188.8.131.52 (talk · contribs) in particular is sinking in quite a few reverts and seems to hold a controversial position. Let's talk things over, hm? – Luna Santin (talk) 00:33, 23 April 2008 (UTC)
Yes it is vandalism. Instead of disscussing the issues on this page, 184.108.40.206 (talk · contribs) just went and consistently deleated the parts the he/she disagreed with. By Wikipedia's standards, this is vandalism.Mjr162006 (talk) 04:03, 23 April 2008 (UTC)
Baba Balak Nath, and Nandinatha Sampradaya
Why is the Nandinath Sampradaya listed as a subsect of the Nath Sampradaya, and Baba Balak Nathji listed as a Nath Guru? From what I've read the Nandinatha Sampradaya is a subsect of the Saiva Siddhanta sect, and doesn't have any connections with the Nath Sampradaya founded by Gorakshanath and Matysendranath. Likewise, legends surrounding Baba Balak Nathji seem to indicate he was a rival of Guru Gorakshanath, and definitely not a follower of his sect. 220.127.116.11 (talk) 22:43, 3 December 2008 (UTC) BolenathBhakta
Shree Ratna Nath Math
Nath vs Natha
Nath vs Anath
No offenses. I've been to Half India, traveled with Naths (those with holes in their Ears) and their Chelas (followers).
Some of them were Peer (head of the Nath Temple, The Boss). I have stayed in their Temples, river side mashan ghat (dead body Burning place), Samadhi, kooti (hut), Desert, jungle etc.
It's been decades, my family member worships them. And I've questions.
What I can't understand is:
- Saapera (Snake Charmer) looks similiar. Is Saapera a branch/sect/cult of Nath (?Sampradaya)?
- Most of Naths drinks, eats fish and meat, I've never seen their Sexual Acts but other Sadhus has told me that they do Sodomy with others using some kitchen "Daal" items, I've seen some temple worshiping (knee bending, thumb pressing, kissing their malas item things). I've many pictures and Videos of them. Now, what I can't understand is, Nath guys are Tantrik? Aghor/Aghori? If they practice Sex/ritual sex - I want to know facts/details. [I've few books about Tantra/Tantrism and I'm still reading them. I've not asked them, hoping that they will get insulted.]
- Do they Hypnotize? I heard but till today's date I've no facts. Rumor is that they use some herbs, Hash, opium, marijuana and other Hypnotic Drugs to Hypnotize/Trance "Gora Shadhu (White Foreigners)", rich man's wife, and others. (I've seen some "Gora man and Woman full in Trance - Living in India, forgetting everything. Picture and Video I have"
- Allmost all Nath smokes weeds, hash and licks opium. (To prove this I've pictures and Video of 12 years unique Nath Mela etc from different places.) I've never seen them Practice Yoga or Worshiping, teaching or preaching. If they own/run Temple, some priest guy comes hourly/daily to do Arati and Pooja (worshiping). Do they worship like other Brahman/Priests?
- When I questioned about them about Alcohol misuse [God! They go crazy after those Drinks. They even fight.] They advocated me about Banaras/Varanasi Temple and Alcohol must Drink rituals. Is it true that in Delhi (near New Delhi) there is a temple of Goddess Kaali where people gives alcohol to priests. And priests have to Drink that Alcohol. Is it true?
- Some humored. The Guy who runs Temple is Nath. And the Guy who has no Temple and Follower is Anath. Is it true?
- Nath guys Politically active? Son of Rajiv Gandhi and other parties financing them? Rumor?
The things written here in Wikipedia is good. But, like a Show Room. Where can I get factual information?
A quick look through the sources indicates that this article needs a very serious scrubbing. Random, self-published websites, many of which seem to be first-person accounts of one person's spiritual journey, definitely do not meet WP:RS. I was about to remove one of them, but when I saw just how many questionable sources there are, I stopped. I'd have to go through and check each one, but it looks like easily half or more of these are not reliable sources; that implies that they need to be removed, and the information the supposedly verify should probably also be removed. The task is too large for me to start now, but I may come back to this at some point. Qwyrxian (talk) 23:00, 13 May 2013 (UTC)