Talk:Albanian National Awakening

Comments

The source of this article is presumably more or less impartial, therefore I think we should check the claims that it is POV.

The third paragraph of the Balkan Wars section makes an incorrect claim. There was not a majority or even sizable population of ethnic Albanians in Kosovo in 1913. Ethnic Albanians moved to the region notably during the first and second world wars. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.176.47.203 (talk) 21:37, 2 April 2009 (UTC)

Renaissance

The term Renaissance (rebirth) links to movements related to art and higher education, but til now it is not related with nations and national awakening. When i first saw the term 'Albanian Renaissance' I thought there was a movement of higher art and thought in the region in Albania (the term links to Da Vinci anyway). Is there any reliable source stating that the article's title really is really relevant with the content.Alexikoua (talk) 04:51, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

I agree, national revival or national awakening are more common.--Mladifilozof (talk) 20:08, 25 January 2010 (UTC)

Igor dropped the following passage:

[Montenegro,] whose tribesmen had resorted to terror, mass murder, and forced conversion in territories it coveted,

"Terror" and "mass murder" are POV terms. But I think we anyway have to state what happened or didn't happen. The passage might be POV in the sense that the deeds of only one party are mentioned. Igor inserted a passage about Montenegrins' losses but it seems to imply war.

As these events are disputed, we need evidence, and more precise descriptions. Andres 12:06, 22 Oct 2003 (UTC)

There was: The key event in the Serbs' national mythology, the defeat of their forces by the Ottoman Turks,

This was really sort of point of view. But I still think that when the author used the word mythology he didn't imply the unreality of the event but that in Serbs' national self-consciousness it played a similar role as Skanderbeg's resistance in that of Albanian's. Andres 12:19, 22 Oct 2003 (UTC)

Igor dropped the sentence: Finally, Albanians claim Kosovo based on the fact that their kinsmen have constituted the vast majority of Kosovo's population since at least the eighteenth century.

Presumably Igor dropped this sentence because he disputes that the above-mentioned "fact" is a fact. But even if isn't it is claimed to be a fact by Albanians. What about substituting "their claim" for "the fact"?

It seems to me that this argument of the Albanians in no way can be dropped because else their claim to Kosovo would not be understandable. Probably this disputed point of Albanians should be elaborated in the text of the article and the details of the dispute should be presented in a separate article.

Besides, I think that even the argument that Albanians constitute a vast majority on some territory at a given moment has some strength at that moment, not considering the history. Therefore it might be artificial to bond the claims about the present and the past in an inseparable whole like the dropped passage is. Andres 12:38, 22 Oct 2003 (UTC)

Question

What deos "Albanian Vilayets" mean? Also, I would like to give credits to the writer of this article - it's perfectly written. However, I fail to see the relevance of a whole section on the Kosovo question that goes indeep to history of Kosovo (going even to the medieval ages?). --PaxEquilibrium 21:54, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

Albanians have no national remains are you that wrong??--Dodona (talk) 09:56, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

References

I am adding some references. Please feel free to work more on editing based on the links I provided. Bests Aigest (talk) 16:33, 24 March 2010 (UTC)

Rising up of Albanians and definition of albanian borders in declaration of independence.

Unresolved

"In 1912, with the outbreak of the First Balkan War, the Albanians rose up and declared the creation of an independent Albania, which included what are now Albania and Kosovo."

This sentence is exact copy of one text written not by historician but by expert in politics, almost 100 years after the event, and can not be used as suitable source for the text of the article.

Albanian Declaration of Independence says nothing about borders of Albania, therefore I propose to delete:

"which included what are now Albania and Kosovo".

--Antidiskriminator (talk) 14:46, 13 October 2010 (UTC)

You are actually wrong. In summer 1912 Albania was declared a unique vilayet and was inclusive of Kosovo. As such it declared its independence. Please see what regions were representing the Albanian leaders in the Albanian Declaration of Independence. --Sulmues ^(talk) 15:18, 13 October 2010 (UTC)

I am afraid that it is you who are actually wrong again. Requested by some people, but never created and established, Albanian vilayet did not include only territories that today belong to Kosovo and Albania. It included territories of four Ottoman vilayets: 1) Kosovo vilayet (that is much larger than todays Kosovo because it contained Sanjak), 2) Shkodra vilayet, 3) Monasteri vilayet and 4) Iannina vilayet. Can you please be so kind to provide inline citation from Albanian Declaration of Independence that shows what are borders of Albania that they declared to be independent country? Are they borders of geographical Albania or Albanian vilayet that was requested in summer of 1912? --Antidiskriminator (talk) 20:34, 13 October 2010 (UTC)

The Albanian unique vilayet, formed by the four prior ones, was requested in 1878 and repeatedly in May-August 1912 during the Albanian Revolt of 1912. It was never obtained by the Ottomans, although something very dark was written in an official document dated 23 August 1912 by the Ottoman government and signed by Hasan Prishtina from the Albanian side. It was a cease-the-hostilities though. The borders of Albania as declared were never delineated but they were the borders of the four vilayets as you can tell from the regions represented by the delegates to the Declaration: Such regions included Ochrid, Struga, Kosovo, Yanina, Chameria. --Sulmues ^(talk) 00:21, 14 October 2010 (UTC)

Can you please give me some link that show that document with dark writting? I know that it exist and it would be useful information for reader of this article and also I would love to see it and include it in some articles I wrote. Regardless of signature of Hassan Prishtina, regions in any country and Ottoman Empire also were defined by Law voted by assembly. If Ottoman assembly changed vilayet organization of Ottoman Empire, then your logic would be correct and Albanian vilayet would be established. In that case it would be territory of Albanian villayet that was occupied by Balkan allies, not Albania. But since it was not established, the above mentioned statement in this article is completely wrong. Also, occupied territory of Ottoman empire that was planned to be territory of never established Albanian vilayet is much larger than it is showed on the map in corresponding article Serbian campaign in Albania (Balkan Wars) and occupation lasted much longer. Parts of never established Albanian vilayet are still in Serbia (Sanjak), Montenegro (Plav and Gusinje), Macedonia (western part of the country and Greece (Ianinna) therefore if your logic is going to be accepted, it should be clearly stated that Serbian, Greek, Montenegrin and Macedonian occupation of Albania still exist.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 09:35, 14 October 2010 (UTC)

I have hard copies of books of history of Albania, so I would need to scan, but sooner or later I'll write articles about the Albanian Revolts of 1910-1912. Let's not make a confusion: Sanjak, Plav and Gusinje were part of Serbia before that 23 July 1912, so that's why the Albanians gave up on those lands on 28 November 1912. The current Albanian government doesn't make any claims on Chameria, Western Macedonia or Kosovo, so the occupation of Albania is over. So seems to be claiming the Greek govt for that matter (that Albania doesn't hold a current "occupation" on Northern Epirus)--Sulmues ^(talk) 19:08, 14 October 2010 (UTC)

I look forward for scanned document with dark writing. In the meantime, I am very sorry, but I have to state I am terribly dissapointed that you dont know what was territory of Kosovo Vilayet. If territory of four Ottoman vilayet belonged to Kingdom of Serbia before First Balkan War, I doubt that there would be a war at all. All four Ottoman vilayets belonged to Ottoman Empire, of course. Sanjak of Novi Pazar was not part of Kingdom of Serbia before First Balkan War, it was part of Kosovo Vilayet. Only during FBW Montenegrin army managed to occupy Plav and Gusinje. There were people from Western Macedonia, Kosovo, Chameria, Plav, Gusinje,...that voted for Albanian Declaration of Independence and I doubt that they gave up any territories. I am afraid that if we continue to follow your logic, that there are significant parts of Albania that are still occupied by Serbia, Montenegro, Macedonia and Greece, regardless the fact that current Albanian government did not claimed occupied territories.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 19:43, 14 October 2010 (UTC)

Here is a link that claim that it is Natural Albania that was founded by Ismail Qemali on November 28, 1912. and never recognized by anyone. What about scanned documents with dark writing you Sulmues promised? --Antidiskriminator (talk) 07:52, 15 November 2010 (UTC)

Allied nations?

"Balkan allies-the Serbs, Bulgarians, and Greeks.."

It is wrong to write nations instead of countries that were allied. Therefore above mentioned sentence should be changed to countries and include Montenegro. --Antidiskriminator (talk) 07:37, 15 November 2010 (UTC)

Balkan without Greeks, Bulgarians, Serbs, Jews, Aromanians, Turks, ....?

Resolved

"The 1877-1878 Russo-Turkish War dealt a decisive blow to Ottoman power in the Balkan Peninsula, leaving the empire with only a precarious hold on Macedonia and the Albanian-populated lands."

In year 1878 Ottoman Empire had very big territory on the Balkan (even appart of Macedonia).

Readers could be mislead to believe that in the Balkan Peninsula territory of Ottoman Empire in 1878 outside Macedonia was populated only with Albanians, which of course is not true. Therefore I will delete second part of the sentence.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 10:22, 25 January 2011 (UTC)

You shouldn't. The reader of Albania-related articles must personally see that those articles are full of rediculous pseudo-informations. We are talking about an Albanian virtual reality. (You forgot the Gypsies).
— Preceding unsigned comment added by Euzen (talk • contribs) 11:20, 14 March 2011 (UTC)