Talk:Native Americans in the United States

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  • several POV sections, including European
  • In "Society", 3 groups are mentioned, Iroquois, Navajo and Pueblo. Are these 3 groups representative of "Native Americans"? And the various descriptions of arts and crafts, tribal stories, and relationships with the spirit world is random and hardly seems to describe "society", then or now.
  • "Religion", ignores the past and only talks about the "most widespread religion at the present time".
  • "Gender roles" hardly says anything--"social and clan relationships were matrilinear and matriarchal" with no elaboration--and ends after all of two sentences with: "The cradle board was used by mothers to carry their baby whilst working or traveling"?
  • "Economy" is a mash-up of references to dugouts, agriculture, tobacco, firearms and alcoholic beverages. This all seems very hastily written, doesn't summarize anything
  • Other sections are problematic in similar ways, particularly with sentences that are oddly worded or say nothing: "Native Americans were stunned to learn..." or "While exhibiting widely divergent social, cultural, and artistic expressions, all Native American groups worked with materials available to them and employed social arrangements that augmented their means of subsistence and survival."
  • no inline citations in "history" and several of the sections, "Other archaeologists have disputed the dating methodology employed, and have also suggested that these "artifacts" are naturally-formed, rather than of human manufacture. Other recent claims for pre-Clovis artifacts have similarly been made in some South American sites. The notion of pre-Clovis habitation continues to be a subject of scholarly debate, and the issue has not yet been satisfactorily resolved." - evidence of weasel words. I added an inline citation for that.
  • lots of weasel words—for example, "is believed to have reached the New World", "They are believed to have reached Alaska", and "molecular genetics studies have suggested". The first one I can't fix (I had nothing to do with writing the article), the second and third examples I found a reference for. The fourth I added "mitochondrial DNA", which I learned in biology but it would be best if somebody could verify this.
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Origins Theory[edit]

Native Americans arrived from Polynesia to south, central, and north America from islands such as Easter Island, Hawaii, and other pacific Islands, being decedents of the Samoans and Polynesians, and were able to settle the continents in a short period through the use of canoes through the continental rivers, similar to the viking explorations and expansions of northern and eastern Europe. Anthropologists should conduct a DNA test of the two societies to confirm this plausible theory. Although northern tribes such as the Inuits, may have migrated from Siberia through the land bridge theory as well. Yet Hawaains and Northern Californians such as Shinooks and Pomo, tend to have greater similarities then norhtern inuits and Siberian Asiatic tribes. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.1.55.242 (talk) 20:33, 17 December 2014 (UTC)

Change of article title to 'Indigenous Americans of the United States'[edit]

Since there is much discrepancy over the term Native, as it relates to those of first nation ancestry verses anyone else born here, as well as over the term Indian, which can also refer to South East Asians, I am proposing the title of this article be changed. There already exists Indigenous peoples of the Americas which covers all first nation peoples of the Americas. In my opinion, this article title should reflect the term applied in the main article. Bab-a-lot (talk) 14:38, 9 September 2013 (UTC)

It shouldn't be moved because the most commonly used terms are "Native American" or "American Indian".User:Maunus ·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 14:57, 9 September 2013 (UTC)
Agreed, that would be against policy, see WP:COMMONNAME. Dougweller (talk) 15:49, 9 September 2013 (UTC)

This all depends on what side of the boundary you are referring to. In Canada, the term Indigenous is currently in vogue, and in Mexico, other terms still are commonly applied to their native peoples (which is further complicated by their unique history and genetics south of the border independent of both the US and CA). In the USA though, the Indian Nations call themselves American Indians by a very wide margin. Historically (until revisionism and internationalism have became the flavors of the month for non-Indians), society at large in the USA also almost universally referred to us as Indians or American Indians. That is who we are. This article should never be referred to as Indigenous... anything. There are articles for Indians in Canada. This article is about the USA and the term should correctly be AMERICAN INDIAN in the USA. Period. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.61.192.67 (talk) 19:25, 28 September 2013 (UTC)

Except using the term "American Indian" would exclude non-Indian Alaska Natives, including Iñupiat, Aleut, and Yupik peoples. The title should remain as it due to WP:COMMONNAME, as Maunus and Dougweller pointed out. Oppose any moves. -Uyvsdi (talk) 20:30, 28 September 2013 (UTC)Uyvsdi
Native American does NOT apply to ALASKA NATIVES who are not genetically, culturally, linguistically or in any other way Native American. ALASKA NATIVES don't have the same relationship with the United States as Native Americans. That's why the United States identifies them as ALASKA NATIVES.


1. INDIAN is the collective term of all pre-colonial inhabitants of the Americas (usually said in the language of the country).
2. In the United States AMERICAN INDIAN designates RACE.
- AMERICAN INDIAN as a RACE was judicially determined and is reflected in United States LAW.
The designation of “AMERICAN INDIAN” as a “RACE” can be seen in the US CENSUS, which states.
AMERICAN INDIAN or Alaska Native: A person having origins in any of the original peoples of North and South America (including Central America) and who “maintains tribal affiliation or community attachment”.
http://www.census.gov/population/race/about/
The designation as a RACE can also be seen in the "free passage" provision codified in Section 289 of the IMMIGRATION AND NATIONALITY ACT. Sec. 289 [8 U.S.C. 1359]. . . . Nothing in this title shall be construed to affect the right of AMERICAN INDIANS born in Canada . . . . But such right shall extend only to persons who possess at least 50 per centum of blood of the AMERICAN INDIAN "RACE”.
http://www.uscis.gov/green-card/other-ways-get-green-card/green-card-american-indian-born-canada


3. The term NATIVE AMERICAN does NOT designate RACE. NATIVE AMERICAN identifies the citizens of FEDERALLY RECOGNIZED TRIBES within the borders of the United States. Tribes, who through TREATIES have a government-to-government relationship with the United States, as a result; various programs and services are available to NATIVE AMERICANS. These programs and services are NOT available to AMERICAN INDIANS, who do not qualify as members of FEDERALLY RECOGNIZED TRIBES.
Here is an example:
For a student to be eligible for many NATIVE AMERICAN scholarships, the student should be an enrolled member of a FEDERALLY RECOGNIZED TRIBE. Otherwise funding will most likely be denied.
http://www.finaid.org/otheraid/natamind.phtml
U.S. DEPARTMENT OF THE INTERIOR
Indian Affairs, through its government-to-government relationship with FEDERALLY RECOGNIZED TRIBES, carries out the Federal Government's unique and continuing relationship with and responsibility to tribes and Indian people. Indian Affairs programs support and assist FEDERALLY RECOGNIZED TRIBES.
http://www.doi.gov/tribes/benefits.cfm]Benefits and Service.
All pre-colonial people/communities/tribes throughout the Americas have criteria to identify their members, which is usually based on recognized kinship, lineal decent and interpersonal bonds held by the community. This is what is stated by the South American Indigenous people which are similar to the criteria of all pre-colonial people of the Americas.
Who is Indian?
• An Indian is any member of an indigenous community, recognized by the latter as such.
• An indigenous community is any community founded on kinship or coresidence relations between its members, who maintain historical-cultural ties with pre-Colombian indigenous social organizations.
http://pib.socioambiental.org/en/c/no-brasil-atual/quem-sao/quem-e-indio
This explains who the NATIVE AMERICANS and INDIANS (American Indians) are.


First Nations or First Nations people designate a specific group of people in Canada. That term does not apply to Native Americans or the Indians of any other Country.Niineta (talk) 18:05, 3 March 2014 (UTC)

is there anything 'pre-columbian'... is THAT a valid meaning?[edit]

i'm not sure i understand that... term... 'pre-columbian?' — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.87.136.238 (talk) 23:02, 8 November 2014 (UTC)

Lede[edit]

1

The current lede reads

"Native Americans are the indigenous peoples within the boundaries of the present-day United States, including those in Alaska and Hawaii"

I'm fairly sure that's accurate w/r/t Alaska ("Indian" sometimes excludes Eskimos; "Native American" doesn't) but is it actually accurate for Hawai`ians? I'm fairly sure that the United States Census lists Asian and Pacific Islander separately; does "Pacific Islander" really exclude the Hawai`ians or does "Native American"? — LlywelynII 03:37, 5 October 2013 (UTC)

2

Obviously, it's much too long and yet still doesn't address the major known pre-Colombian history and cultures or the actual Europeans involved in colonizing the United States. I don't want to get involved in a protracted edit war here, but I do request that one of the local page monitors restructure and condense the existing lede so that it has a five paragraph structure: 1, lede with definitions; 2, an overview of pre-contact Indians; 3, an overview of the initial conquest; 4, an overview of American behavior post-independence; and 5, an overview of the present situation since the granting of citizenship or since the '60s. Long boilerplate (especially questionably accurate or relevant boilerplate like contrasting "matrilinear" with "patriarchy") should ideally be avoided in favor of shorter sentences with lots of links to the relevant sections or articles. — LlywelynII 05:08, 5 October 2013 (UTC)

1. Depends on context. The census has separate "Native American and Alaskan Native" and "Native Hawaiian" (sometimes put under "Asian-Pacific Islander"). But the U.S. law sometimes defines Native Americans as all of those groups (see [1], [2], definition 3 at [3]) Rmhermen (talk) 01:49, 5 November 2013 (UTC)

What`s a lede? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.242.102.242 (talk) 18:02, 31 October 2014 (UTC)

Wow. You couldn't look it up yourself? Okay, for you and other lazy people, "lede" is a deliberate re-spelling of "lead," to prevent confusion between lead, for the opening of an article, with lead, the thin piece of metal typographers use to set type. (It's the spacing between lines of text.) It would've have been so much easier and faster for you to have simply typed lede in the wiki search box - you do understand how Wikipedia works, don't you?.__209.179.8.124 (talk) 01:43, 9 November 2014 (UTC)

Population numbers and Death by Disease[edit]

it says |Puget Sound area populations, once estimated as high as 37,000 people| that number is absurdly low. The Duawamish tribe alone, all by itself, probably had that many people. There are documented accounts of huge longhouses. As far as Deaths by Disease, these numbers are also much too low. Based on still surviving oral traditions I'd estimate that the death rates for the Chinook tribe were closer to 80 to 90 percent, it is said that so many died that there was no one left to bury the dead. About ten years ago, near Port Townsend a burial site was found containing thousands of people who had died of disease. The deaths had been so traumatic that the location had been forgotten and was only found due to construction. These are the things that my elders have taught me, Ah Nee. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.47.4.32 (talk) 04:36, 19 November 2013 (UTC)

Those numbers are taken (indirectly) from "Robert Boyd, The Coming of the Spirit of Pestilence (Vancouver, BC: UBC Press, 1999)". You could look for other research on the subject. Rmhermen (talk) 05:06, 20 November 2013 (UTC)

poor article on wikipedia[edit]

boo — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:9:4E00:931:90BE:92B8:B858:303F (talk) 21:09, 30 November 2013 (UTC)

It will be more helpful if you could be more detailed about what you find lacking. Rmhermen (talk) 00:30, 1 December 2013 (UTC)

brevity is the soul of wit..the opposite of rhetoric — Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.242.102.242 (talk) 18:04, 31 October 2014 (UTC)

Biological Warfare[edit]

I believe the article would be improved if the following was added as the second paragraph in the "1.2.1 Impact on native populations" section:

The extent to which the Native American population was intentionally infected with disease through biological warfare, as opposed to accidental infection, is unknown. In 1763, Sir Jeffrey Amherst, Commander-in-Chief of the Forces of the British Army, wrote praising the use of smallpox infected blankets to “extirpate” the Indian race. There is clear evidence that both biological warfare and accidental infection were factors in the Indigenous holocaust.[1][2][3]

Bernardwoodpecker (talk) 14:50, 18 March 2014 (UTC)

Red Indians?[edit]

Why is there no reference to the fact that they were popularly referred to as "Red Indians" until at least the 1970s, together with an explanation of why that term was suddenly dropped? --Bermicourt (talk) 06:57, 19 June 2014 (UTC)

Because there is a link to this article: Native American name controversy.User:Maunus ·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 07:35, 19 June 2014 (UTC)
I don't think that really cuts it. My understanding is that historically (for decades) that was the most common name for most of the native American tribes, far more so than the other names mentioned in the controversy article, and so this article ought to mention that as part of its faithful historical coverage. Otherwise we're just brushing history under the carpet. --Bermicourt (talk) 13:31, 19 June 2014 (UTC)
I think your understanding is in error. "Red Indian" has never been the most common term, plain "Indian" and "American Indian" have always been most common and continue to be used. Ideally the naming controversy article should be summarized in the section where the link is found, but given that "Red Indian" is not a very prominent topic within that controversy I doubt it merits any coverage in this article at all.User:Maunus ·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 15:14, 19 June 2014 (UTC)
Anyone else have a view? --Bermicourt (talk) 19:01, 19 June 2014 (UTC)
I support Maunus view. I think the only reference to "red Indians" were made by "ignorant Hollywood Cowboys" Mlpearc (open channel) 19:25, 19 June 2014 (UTC)
Interesting, then, that the Oxford Dictionary of English states: "Red Indian - noun - old-fashioned term for American Indian. Usage: The term Red Indian, first recorded in the early 19th century, has largely fallen out of use, associated as it is with an earlier period and the corresponding sterotypes of cowboys and Indians and the Wild West. If used today, the term may cause offence..." Surely something on those lines is worth recording in an encyclopaedic article? --Bermicourt (talk) 19:57, 19 June 2014 (UTC)
Wikipedia is not a dictionary, and the Oxford dictionary merely records the existence of the word and that it is no longer in use, it doesnt suggest it was ever common or prominent relative to other terms.User:Maunus ·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 01:18, 21 June 2014 (UTC)
May I use that for a reference for my previous statement ? Mlpearc (open channel) 20:06, 19 June 2014 (UTC)
It would be better if you found a reference that supported your statement or, more constructively, worked on appropriately article wording that reflects the references. --Bermicourt (talk) 20:28, 19 June 2014 (UTC)
I don't edit this article, I was responding to your query. Mlpearc (open channel) 20:35, 19 June 2014 (UTC)

──────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────── The participants here might be interested in this discussion, if it is worthy of the name. Many people do seem to have this concern; best to have a comprehensive discussion, even if nothing changes in the end. Vanamonde93 (talk) 09:12, 20 August 2014 (UTC)


I agree wholeheartedly with the first comment. I was brought up to use the term Red Indian and I use the term regularly with my grandson when we talk about Hiawatha, Crazy Horse etc. I know that in some quarters it is not now thought quite politically correct. But that isn't the point: it's still a commonplace term where I come from. And I'm sure it is for millions of other ordinary folk all across the English-speaking world. Given that the term is unquestionably still current I'd add 'also referred to as Red Indians' in the text. Cassandra. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.12.107.219 (talk) 15:10, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

P.S. Just Googled the term 'Red Indian' to make sure it's not just me. The name is very much alive and kicking, with thousands upon thousands of hits. Cassandra — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.12.107.219 (talk) 15:23, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

  • Here are three ngrams of "Red Indian" compared to "Native American" in British English[4], American English[5], and all English[6] publications on Google from 1800 to 2000. The trend is clear - "Red Indian" has no currency, even though apparently Britain has been slower to give it up.User:Maunus ·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 17:22, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

That doesn't strike me as a logical conclusion. One can't say that 'Red Indian has no currency' unless its use has actually ceased. Factually one can only say that its use has declined. I suspect that it's mainly Americans who are sensitive about this. But of course Wiki's job is just to report the facts not be judgemental - or sensitive. Writing from a British perspective, but also as someone with a lifelong respect and admiration for Indian culture I can't say that on this side of the Atlantic that the term 'Red Indian' has any negative or perjorative overtones at all. It is however a useful way to distnguish native Americans from West Indians and Indians from India. But, regardless of anyone's views or feelings, since it is still very much a current term it strikes me that it should therefore be recorded as such. Cassandra — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.12.107.177 (talk) 16:59, 17 October 2014 (UTC)

A term will never get a currency of zero, because it will get repeated in quotes and in place names such as "Red Indian Lake". And since the shift in Britain occurred around 40 years ago it will also continue to be in use among older generations untill they die out. That does not mean that the word is current it means that it is obsolete. The fact that you admire Native Americans really has nothing to do with the possible overtones of the word. this article is not about terminology, if any reliable sources can be found describing the term it would be appropriate to write about the usage of "red indian" in the article on the Native American naming controversy but not here. One more thing: Historically "Red Indian" was in fact used as a specific term to describe the Beothuk people of Newfoundland who had the custom of painting their faces with ochre.User:Maunus ·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 16:23, 18 October 2014 (UTC)

I didn't pay much attention to this thread previously, and when I did, I initially thought Bermicourt was wrong about this. However, the data presented by Maunus suggests the OP actually has a point - it seems that RI was more prevalent than NA in British usage until approx. 1978, and for most of its history was roughly equally prevalent as AI (until around 1955).[7] So on the basis of prevalence in historical usage in BE, the complaint seems to be justified. Samsara (FA  FP) 14:28, 18 October 2014 (UTC)

I'm not sure I was making 'a complaint', simply making an observation. Factually in the UK today one can buy Red Indian Headresses, Red Indian costumes etc. in any toyshop. These are advertsied without embarrassment or seemingly any recognition that the name is now thought by some to be a perjorative term (Eskimo is commonly used too, even though most folk know that Inuit is the preferred term these days). The OED quote is quite correct, but of course most folk don't read the OED. The use of the RI name does indeed seem to be declining, but it remains in common informal usage, if not in formal writings. All of us happily and thoughtlessly call Greeks 'Greeks' even though they haven't called themselves that for the best part of three thousand years. We have no sense that we might be insulting the inhabitants of Greece - and from the UK the Red Indian thing seems, in some ways, rather like that; it is obviously a much more sensitive issue in North America. However since to assert that RI is no longer used is factually untrue, I'd be inclined to include something like 'In British English the older term Red Indian remains in common use informally, though its use is declining.' Cassandra — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.5.11.117 (talk) 17:17, 19 October 2014 (UTC)


Just one further observation. Words often look the same but mean different things to different people. 'Red Indian' is presumably seen as a perjorative term in North America because of historical conflicts there. 'Red Indian' is/was associated with negative words such as savage, barbaric, hostile and dangerous. By contrast elswhere, and in the UK in particular, the word associations instead tend to be positive ones: e.g. noble, free, adventurous, heroic, dignified and romantic. Thus I suggest the reason the term continues to be commonplace, at least informally, outside North America is simply because linguistically it isn't universally seen as perjorative, in particular not in the UK. Cassandra — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.5.3.41 (talk) 10:39, 24 October 2014 (UTC)

By coincidence a full page article appeared in the British Daily Mail newspaper on 6th November 2014 which uses the term 'Red Indian' no fewer than seven times (it also uses the term 'Native American') . The op-ed piece by Richard Littlejohn is headlined 'Next, these idiots will stop children playing Cowboys and Indians'. The article is about the harrassing of one Ellie Goulding who has been accused by her critics of being 'racist, ignorant and insensitive', and guilty of 'cultural appropriation' after she was photographed wearing an Indian headress. Whatever ones views on the matter, the term 'Red Indian' is unquestionably in current British usage. Cassandra. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2.96.49.121 (talk) 11:36, 6 November 2014 (UTC)

Oh sure, there will always be those who use the term. The author of that piece also made the false claim that public funds were used to teach Asian women hopscotch, and when a teacher changed sex and was allowed to keep her job, attacked the decision. The teacher died a probable suicide and the coroner said that Littlejohn " "...carried out what can only be described as a character assassination, having sought to ridicule and humiliate Lucy Meadows and bring into question her right to pursue her career as a teacher". So him using 'red Indian' proves that bigots will continue to use such terms. Dougweller (talk) 12:14, 6 November 2014 (UTC)

I don't know whether Mr Littlejohn is a bigot or not. The point is that one of Britain's largest circulation national daily newspapers saw nothing wrong in using the term 'Red Indian'. The Daily Mail habitually employs asterisks in place of words deemed unsuitable for publication, not least racist terms. The logical conclusion is that (i) Red Indian is a current term in British English and (ii) it is not generally thought of as offensive. The implication that only bigots would use the term is a false conclusion - though logically even it were true it would not alter the fact that the term does still enjoy indisputable currency. Cassandra — Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.243.17.232 (talk) 17:55, 28 November 2014 (UTC)

Oral History / Literature[edit]

I once read the Winnebago Trickster Cycle - a collection of tales. I liked it very much. Why is there no reference to literature whatsoever? I am no expert in this field, merely interested.84.113.215.82 (talk) 17:36, 22 June 2014 (UTC)

See Mythologies of the indigenous peoples of North America -- Moxy (talk) 18:07, 22 June 2014 (UTC)

Needs serious work[edit]

Some of the changes I've made were unsourced; however, the content I'm repairing was not sourced either. Additionally, sourced content was removed wholesale by Rmhermen‎. Let's discuss it here rather than just revert each other. - CorbieV 20:22, 19 October 2014 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 8 November 2014[edit]

Wikipedia calls native americans Indians? Do you have any clue about geography or you are lost like colombus? Indians are from India. 70.113.102.161 (talk) 04:44, 8 November 2014 (UTC)

Red information icon with gradient background.svg Not done: It is very obvious that Native Americans are commonly referred to as Indians. There is a section in this article about this. Cannolis (talk) 12:53, 8 November 2014 (UTC)

Why no mention at all of Native American Government? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2605:A000:FFC0:6A:353A:A4D8:6E1A:A392 (talk) 18:24, 10 January 2015 (UTC)

  1. ^ Crawford, Native Americans of the Pontiac's War, 245–250
  2. ^ Phillip M. White (June 2, 2011). American Indian Chronology: Chronologies of the American Mosaic. Greenwood Publishing Group. p. 44. 
  3. ^ D. Hank Ellison (August 24, 2007). Handbook of Chemical and Biological Warfare Agents. CRC Press. p. 123-140. ISBN 0-8493-1434-8.