Talk:Nativity of Jesus

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Former good article nominee Nativity of Jesus was a Philosophy and religion good articles nominee, but did not meet the good article criteria at the time. There are suggestions below for improving the article. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake.
November 20, 2007 Good article nominee Not listed
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Requested move: Nativity of Jesus → The Nativity[edit]

The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the proposal was no move. Cúchullain t/c 13:07, 7 June 2012 (UTC)

Nativity of JesusThe Nativity – This title was suggested by the closer of the previous RM. Googling "The Nativity" -wikipedia shows that this topic is primary. The Nativity already redirects here. Britannica`s entry is entitled "Nativity", and it uses "the Nativity" in the text. There are books on this subject titled "The Nativity" here and here. The proposed form is certainly more common as a search term, as you can see here. Kauffner (talk) 03:34, 29 May 2012 (UTC)

  • Oppose. Sorry. Your argument about searches is actually valid. The only reason I prefer Nativity of Jesus is that it telegrams what it is upfront. Of course, WP:COMMONNAME should be considered, but then the encyclopedia reader should know what it is within 3 seconds when it is used in a "See also" somewhere else. When "The Nativity" is used in a See also elsewhere, it is less clear than Nativity of Jesus. That is all. History2007 (talk) 07:33, 29 May 2012 (UTC)
  • Support per nom and WP:UCN. - Presidentman talk · contribs Random Picture of the Day (Talkback) 12:24, 29 May 2012 (UTC)
  • Oppose – Google is [not] your friend. The search terms comparison has a nice multi-year graph showing huge spikes for "The Nativity" in December each year and tiny spikes for "Nativity of Jesus", but to the right of that graph (with underlining added) it had this:
A This Week in History: Church of the Nativity siege
B Palestinian Leader At Midnight Mass President Mahmoud Abbas Attends Bethlehem Church Of The Nativity
C Feast of the Nativity of the Blessed Virgin Mary
D 'Children of mud' celebrate the nativity of John the Baptist
E Tony Jordan to follow The Nativity with story of Noah
F Palestinians seek UNESCO recognition for Church of the Nativity
G Eyewitness: The nativity
Of course "Nativity" appears in a lot more pages, since it is not specific enough. "Nativity of Jesus" is more specific, less ambiguous, more informative of what the article is about, (and I like it! :)
—Telpardec  TALK  17:05, 2 June 2012 (UTC)
Some other "nativity" wiki-pages: * Nativity * Nativity of Jesus in art * Nativity of Jesus in later culture * Nativity of Jesus (disambiguation) * Nativity scene * Church of the Nativity * Nativity of St. John the Baptist * Nativity of Mary * The Nativity Story
  • Check the associated terms for "The Nativity" on the bottom of the Insights page. It's "nativity church", "nativity movie", etc. I don't see anything that suggests that readers are seeking information on the nativity of someone other than Jesus. The list of news stories is just random, not intended to be representative of what readers are seeking. Kauffner (talk) 18:36, 2 June 2012 (UTC)
  • Actually Telpardec has a point in that "Nativity of Mary" and "Nativity of John the Baptist" etc. may be showing up in searches, etc. History2007 (talk) 18:45, 2 June 2012 (UTC)
  • You obviously didn't check Insights' list of associated terms. Here it is: nativity church, the nativity church, church of nativity, the christmas nativity, christmas nativity, nativity movie, the nativity, the nativity movie, nativity scene, nativity of jesus. Not one of those search terms suggest an interest in the birth of Mary or John the Baptist. Try googling "The Nativity" -wikipedia. Not one hit on the first three pages of results relates to the birth of anyone other than Jesus. Kauffner (talk) 19:03, 2 June 2012 (UTC)
  • I do not pay attention to G-insights because it does not establish "usage" but "interest in search". Interest in search has no bearing on usage in mainstream published sources. History2007 (talk) 19:07, 2 June 2012 (UTC)
  • Ok, so what source calls this subject "nativity of Jesus"? I gave Britannica in the nom, and Presidentman has given a list of dictionaries. All these sources call it nativity/Nativity. Here are even more dictionary entries. Cambridge is typical: "Nativity, the birth of Jesus, celebrated by Christians at Christmas: the Nativity story." Kauffner (talk) 21:48, 2 June 2012 (UTC)
There are various sources which use the term Nativity of Jesus, also here etc. Yet my main objection is/was based on "ambiguity", as in Carl's post. History2007 (talk) 11:18, 3 June 2012 (UTC)
The first three pages of Google results for the proposed term all relate to this topic. It is a highly unambiguous term. There's nothing wrong with using an ambiguous term as the title of an article anyway. Kauffner (talk) 13:16, 3 June 2012 (UTC)
Anyway, I think we know our respective positions. Let us see what other people will say. History2007 (talk) 13:20, 3 June 2012 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The Timeline[edit]

I would like to suggest that there be a timeline to the "Birth of Christ" one that makes reference to a Jewish time that is a correct way when interpreting the Birth of Christ. He was not born in the month of December or even in the winter months. One clue is Rome would not of had a census in that time, it would have been in the months of Sept-Oct, the next clue is when the Host of Angels tells the shepherds in the field about the birth would have been in the feast of Sukkot which literally means "God is with us" if you check your facts in the Bible it clearly makes references to so many things on the birth of Christ, and with a little knowledge of the Bible one can find this out on his own. Zachariah was in the division of Abijah which was a division set up in the Book of Chronicles their time would have been an accurate time. Another clue is when the birth of John the Baptist happened Mary was 3 months into her pregnancy.Clearly looks like this: Sukkot-Birth, Passover- sacrifice, Unleavened Bread- death, Firstfruits- resurrection, Shavout- Indwelling of the Holy Spirit, Yom Kippur- Atonement Rosh ha Shanah- (Yahs new year) judgement. The Bible says that the spirit of Elijah shall proceed the coming of the LORD- so John the Baptist would have been born on Passover and about six months later in the feast of Sukkot the Messiah would have been born. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 12thebeginning (talkcontribs) 19:33, 24 July 2012 (UTC)

That is likely beyond the scope of this article. See Chronology of Jesus and Historical Jesus. Elizium23 (talk) 19:37, 24 July 2012 (UTC)
Quite right. And much of the commentary above about the time line is WP:OR and source free. History2007 (talk) 19:59, 24 July 2012 (UTC)

December birth user suggestion[edit]

The Birth of Jesus, the Christ

The birth of Jesus is a topic that has been the subject of debate for many,years. There are many theologians

that have openly started that the Birth of Jesus was not in December, and most likely not in the winter season.

There are those who say that there is no way of telling when the birth of Jesus occurred, and that it does not matter

as long as we celebrate it in the correct spirit and for the right reason.

What if there really is a way to know the real date of the Birth of Jesus, would it make a difference?

Remember this, that most of the treasures that are found in ALMIGHTY GOD'S Holy Word has to be dug out.

A nugget of wisdom may be found on top of the ground or laying in a stream, but the mother-lode vein

of understanding will only be uncovered with diligent, and time consuming search.

What if the Holy Bible, ALMIGHTY GOD'S Holy Word, could actually tell us the day when the only begotten

Son of God was born, would it make a difference to the Christian Church?

Let us take a look at some verses of Holy Scripture and the words that they contain, to see what can be found.

The first 4 verses of Luke tell us of the importance and the reliability of what

Luke is about to tell us concerning Zacharias, the father of John the baptist,

and the time in which he served as a priest in the Temple.

Luke 1:1-4

1:1 Forasmuch as many have taken in hand to set forth in order a declaration

of those things which are most surely believed among us,

2 Even as they delivered them unto us, which from the beginning

were eyewitnesses, and ministers of the word;

3 It seemed good to me also, having had perfect understanding of all things

from the very first, to write unto thee in order, most excellent Theophilus,

4 That thou mightest know the certainty of those things,

wherein thou hast been instructed. KJV

Verse 5 holds the key to unlocking the mystery we seek to understand.

THE COUSE OF ABIA

Luke 1:5

5 There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judaea, a certain priest named Zacharias,

of the course of Abia: and his wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elisabeth. KJV

NT:2183 Course

ephemeria (ef-ay-mer-ee'-ah); from NT:2184; diurnality, i.e. (specially) the quotidian rotation

or class of the Jewish priests' service at the Temple, as distributed by families: KJV - course.

(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright (c) 1994, Biblesoft and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

Diurnality and Quotidian are words that mean Daily. (Webster's Dictionary)

NT:7 Abia / Abijah

Abia (ab-ee-ah'); of Hebrew origin [OT:29]; Abijah,

the name of two Israelites: KJV - Abia.

(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright (c) 1994, Biblesoft and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

The course of Abia, or Abijah as it is known in the Old Testament,

was the time period that Abijah was to serve in the temple

to burn incense unto ALMIGHTY GOD.

the 8th course was named after Abijah as he was the first Priest to be appointed to that office for that particular time.

Most Holy Bibles that have any kind of cross reference system,

directing you from one verse that you might be reading to another, will most likely

give you a cross reference from Luke 1:5 to I Chronicles 24:10.

This cross reference may be found at the end of the verse that you are reading,

in a center column, or in a foot note found at the bottom of the page.

I have checked 4 of our KJV versions, and 1 NIV, and all show the same cross reference

to I Chronicles 24:10 to tell us more about the COURSE OF ABIA / ABIJAH.

1 Chronicles 24:10

10. The seventh to Hakkoz,

the eighth to Abijah, KJV

This would have been the 8th course, or division as stated in I Chronicles 24:1.

Each course or division would be for service of seven days, a week, as found in I Chronicles 9:25.

Back to Zacharias the father of John the baptist, his course, of Abia/Abijah, would have been

the 8th course or division which would have been the 8th week of the year.

That is the 8th week of the Hebrew year.

The book of Exodus, chapter 12 Moses and Aaron are instructed by ALMIGHTY GOD

as to when the beginning of the year will be, which is Abib, also known as Nisan.

Exodus 12:1-2

12:1 And the LORD spake unto Moses and Aaron in the land of Egypt, saying,

2 This month shall be unto you the beginning of months:

it shall be the first month of the year to you. KJV

OT:2320 Month / New Moon

chodesh (kho'-desh); from OT:2318; the new moon; by implication, a month: -month (-ly), new moon.

(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright (c) 1994, Biblesoft and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

Then in Exodus 13:4 we are told the name of that month is Abib,

also known as Nisan

Exodus 13:1-4

13:1 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,

2 Sanctify unto me all the firstborn, whatsoever openeth the womb among

the children of Israel, both of man and of beast: it is mine.

3 And Moses said unto the people, Remember this day, in which ye came out from Egypt,

out of the house of bondage; for by strength of hand the LORD brought you

out from this place: there shall no leavened bread be eaten.

4 This day came ye out in the month Abib. KJV

OT:24 Abib

'abiyb (aw-beeb'); from an unused root (meaning to be tender); green, i.e. a young ear of grain;

hence, the name of the month Abib or Nisan

(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright (c) 1994, Biblesoft and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

Knowing the name of the first month of the year, Abib, which ALMIGHTY GOD gave to Moses,

we then can go to a Hebrew Calendar Website that converts the Gregorian Calendar Years to the Hebrew Calendar years.

The Gregorian calendar is the calendar that most of the world uses today and starts the year with January 1.

The Hebrew calendar Starts each month with the new moon. The month of Nisan, (Abib) starts

in mid March to mid April depending on how the New Moon falls for that month, in that particular year.

The year, or 2 years that we are looking at would be Hebrew years 3760 and 3761, which takes us back to the last year before

the birth of Jesus, and the first year AD or CE, the year of the birth of Jesus. We are looking at 2 years due to the fact

that John the baptist was conceived and born 6 months before Jesus. This would mean that the entire time period that we are looking

at is a couple of days short of 17 months, (Hebrew Calendar), 9 months + 6 months + 8 weeks.

9 months = the time period from John's conception, to his birth.

6 months = Jesus was conceived 6 months after John, which means he would be born 6 months after John.

8 weeks = The 8 weeks that Zacharias served in the temple just before John was conceived.

9 months + 6 months + 1 month and 26-27 days = 16 months and 26-27 days.

Please remember the Hebrew months only had 29 - 30 days, not 30 - 31 as the Gregorian calendar.

The year that John was conceived was Hebrew year 3760.

The first month of the Hebrew year 3760 was Nisan / Abib.

Nisan / Abib 1, 3760, on the Gregorian calendar would have been March 25th, 1BC.

Zacharias served the 8th week of the Hebrew year in the temple, which would have been

Iyar 20th, through Iyar 26th 3760, or on the Gregorian calendar it would have been May 13th through May 19th, 1BC.

John was conceived on Iyar 27th, 3760, on the Gregorian calendar it would have been May 20th, 1BC.

John was born 9 months later which was Sh'vat 27th, 3761, or February 10th, 1AD, on the Gregorian calendar.

Jesus was conceived 6 months after John was conceived, which would have been Chesvan 27th, 3760.

On the Gregorian calendar it was November 13th 1BC .

Jesus was born 9 months later.

On the Hebrew calendar Jesus was born on Av 27th 3761, this would have been August 6th, 1AD ,or CE.

Please keep in mind that the birth date of Jesus the Christ will always remain the same on the Hebrew Calendar,

it will always be the 27th day of the Hebrew month Av. Therefore, because the Hebrew month has less days the

Gregorian month, his birth date on the Gregorian calendar will change each year to coincide with the Hebrew calendar.

Most often, if not all the time, his birth date should fall within the month of August on the Gregorian calendar.

By the way, one of the reasons ALMIGHTY GOD gave us the Sun, the Moon, and the Stars, was to be able to

to figure out the days, the months, and the years, so that HIS people could keep the festivals that HE

commanded us to keep.

Genesis 1:14

14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night;

and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years: KJV

Below is the most user friendly website that I could find that converts the Hebrew to Gregorian

and gregorian to Hebrew, or BC to AD/CE.

www.shirhadash.org/calendar/hcal.cgi?y=3760 www.shirhadash.org/calendar/hcal.cgi?y=3761

Highlight either one of above web addresses, and then right click on it.

Then left click on Go to www.

Melvin L. Heath (talk) 14:41, 15 December 2012 (UTC)

I think you need to read WP:OR Melvin. The statements you typed above are "original research" and fail per WP:V, WP:RS and WP:Primary. This will not fly in Wikipedia. Take my word for it. Sorry. History2007 (talk) 15:07, 15 December 2012 (UTC)