Talk:Naturism

Textile/Textilist

This edit favours "textilist" but I've only ever heard "textile". This talk page mainly uses "textile". What do others think? SueTwo (talk) 16:46, 11 July 2011 (UTC)

I would suggest that it is a matter of location. I have heard both- in the past it was always textilist, and more recently it has become more mixed. I am totally tainted as I am French speaker, and most of the FKK conversations I have with the English refer to places in France, and otherwise they are non native English speakers. There are sentences where I would use one rather than the other- I think I would tend to use Textile in a more derogatory sense- and textilist in a more positive way. If Malcolm Bourra is watching he might have some advice to give. --ClemRutter (talk) 18:30, 11 July 2011 (UTC)

Until reading the Wikipedia page, I had never come across "textilist". In UK, "textile" is used almost universally in naturist magazines, conversations and forums, and in fiction featuring naturism (eg Adam Mars-Jones' story 'Summer Lighting' and Alan Palmer's 'The Reluctant Nudist'). Some UK naturists avoid the term because they feel it has negative / derogatory connotations, but I've never seen "textilist" suggested as an alternative. Checking online, a dictionary.com search for "textile" includes one definition "non-nudist", while a dictionary.com search for "textilist" finds no definitions at all for "textilist". Google does find around 6000 pages in English using "textilist" as well as either "nudist" or "naturist", but this is insignificant compared to over 1 million pages in English using "textile" with either "nudist" or "naturist". Perhaps we could have some authoritative citations / examples to support mention of "textilist"? Even if my (and others') experience of naturist/nudist terminology is limited and deficient, and the main article should indeed refer to "textilist" as the primary simple term for a non-nudist or for non-naturist behaviour, why eliminate reference to the very widely used term "textile"? Tim Forcer (talk) 09:13, 16 July 2011 (UTC)

Not a big deal, if you have some references do an edit. If you want to talk about over a glass of wine- asK for me at reception at Monta. Both terms are used so just report it and reference it. --ClemRutter (talk) 20:33, 16 July 2011 (UTC)

OK. Done. Tim Forcer (talk) 16:50, 19 July 2011 (UTC)

New suggestion - the level of detail devoted to textile / textilist (etc) is, perhaps, excessive in the main page. Should it be transferred to section "labels, associations and terminology" in Issues in social nudity? Tim Forcer (talk) 16:55, 19 July 2011 (UTC)

I am leaving big decisions until I have boosted by vitamin D levels at Monta and Agde. --ClemRutter (talk) 21:18, 22 July 2011 (UTC)

Parking a reference

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/jul/22/german-nudist-groups-memberships-shrink --ClemRutter (talk) 21:18, 22 July 2011 (UTC)

Criticism

Criticism subsection is a joke in its current state. Someone should clean it up a bit. 83.5.152.43 (talk) 21:39, 13 July 2011 (UTC)

File:At the nudist beach.jpg Nominated for speedy Deletion

An image used in this article, File:At the nudist beach.jpg, has been nominated for speedy deletion at Wikimedia Commons for the following reason: Other speedy deletions What should I do? Don't panic; deletions can take a little longer at Commons than they do on Wikipedia. This gives you an opportunity to contest the deletion (although please review Commons guidelines before doing so). The best way to contest this form of deletion is by posting on the image talk page. If the image is non-free then you may need to upload it to Wikipedia (Commons does not allow fair use) If the image isn't freely licensed and there is no fair use rationale then it cannot be uploaded or used. If the image has already been deleted you may want to try Commons Undeletion Request This notification is provided by a Bot --CommonsNotificationBot (talk) 19:42, 24 August 2011 (UTC)

Appeal process started

I have now changed this speedy deletion request into a standard nomination so that it can be discussed here. I imagine most watchers of this page will want to keep it; if so please go to the image talk page and vote to "keep". AdeMiami (talk) 08:41, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

Discussion pictures please

Rather than having a slow edit war, please discuss changes, --Nuujinn (talk) 22:32, 11 September 2011 (UTC)

This image does not appear to be about naturism. Neither do the uploader's other contibutions. If an image is not self-evidently naturist, the article should cite evidence that it is relevant. Or putting it another way, what does the image add to an article about naturism? SueTwo (talk) 23:15, 11 September 2011 (UTC)

Could not one say the same of [1]? If I go skinny dipping, am I then a naturist? Or [2], since nude models are a common subject of art? Or [3], as nude saunas are common? I don't have an opinion one way or another, really, but tend to prefer fewer pictures in articles. --Nuujinn (talk) 23:33, 11 September 2011 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Thanks for intervening Nuujinn. The naturism page needs images of naturism as defined in the article. Periodical we get an inappropriate image that a user will claim represents naturism to them (POV), we had one of a woman on a horse that some user was very fond of- but it did not illustrate the article it needed to go. This image is not as naturism as we know it. If you examine the EXIF data you will see it was taken in late October- in weather conditions so foul that a flash was need at midday. The pose, on a easily framed rock suggest that this was a self portrait taken on a time delay, which would explain the need to find some cold damp obscured woodland. There is none of the detritus one would expect in a genuine naturist environment and particularly no sign of a towel which would always be used when sitting down. Look further at the definition in the lead Naturism or nudism is a cultural and political movement practising, advocating and defending social nudity.. this image just doesn't fit the article. --ClemRutter (talk) 23:50, 11 September 2011 (UTC)

Your questions.

• Photo 1. Social nudity- such was practised while swimming at Manchester Grammar School in the 1970s- demonstrates that single sex social nudity used to be the norm-- the image has a place but is not required and necessary.
• If you go skinny dipping you are engaging in a naturist activity- if you do it regularly then I would define you as naturist. An interesting borderline case is where a group of friends (20s -30s) regularly skinny dip together, but not when their are others of the same inclination present. Further many youngsters do use the term skinny-dip but would never say they were naturist. Youngsters don't join organisations. Germany is different, kids will undress happily on a beach and cloth to enter the pool- or for a laugh one will not bother. This will continue into adult hood. They have the letters FKK which is broader than naturism.
• Carl Larsson- I can't see the connection- a better image would be the one of his son diving[4]. Or even [5].
• The Sauna- yes, it is poor, when looking to remove it I couldn't find any images of saunas to use. Interesting you say that saunas are nude environments- in Germany [6] this is true but France and UK the wearing of clothes is normal. Wierd.

The major difficulty with illustrating this article is that it is an unwritten rule that you do not use a camera in a Naturist area- so no photographs are available. All the land is private and the owners make restrictions to respect the privacy of their guests. The shots we can use are fairly vintage, and limited to lounging on sun-kissed beaches- or non naturist shots that feature paid models. Hope that helps. --ClemRutter (talk) 00:18, 12 September 2011 (UTC)

I disagree that photography (setting aside that of-and-by the photographer) and naturism are distinct. While it is true that some naturists, some naturist clubs/resorts/venues and some naturist locations discourage or prohibit photography, others don't (or will explicitly allow photography of one's own "group"/"family"). Naturist magazines are full of photographs of naturists - even after discounting images taken specifically for publication/advertising/promotion and images showing only one or two naturists. In passing, please note that there is no rule which states that naturists can't be professional models. For the purposes of illustrating this Wikipedia page, I suggest that readers are perfectly capable of visualising solo nudity (eg in the woods, in a sauna), and the main object of the illustrations should be to show "typical" / "example" naturist situations, reflecting the "social nudity" which characterises naturism: a beach, a club, a campsite, miniten, shuffle-board, a resort bar, a venue's pool, a yacht. Such photos, I suggest, would ideally show a mix of ages and bodytypes - the norm in my experience of naturism - which might help to demonstrate to the reader that naturists comprise more than just "lissom lovely" and tanned Adonis types seen in advertising (eg holiday brochures). Like others, I don't feel the solo-in-the-woods photo is a helpful image for illustrating a Wikipedia page about naturism in general. If individuals wish to promote their individual POV, and to illustrate that POV, that's fine, but Wikipedia is not an appropriate vehicle for such promotion (in my view) - so specific illustrations as well as text should be acceptable (nay, welcomed) by several or many contributors, not just one. In that context, the beach photo which someone objected to recently seems to have a consensus in favour, solo-in-the-woods does not.Tim Forcer (talk) 13:47, 14 September 2011 (UTC)

I took the liberty of moving the skinny dipping pic to the section discussing that activity, seems more appropriate there. Regarding the sauna, I think the german pic is more appropriate. In the US, mostly people wear bathing suits and sometimes just a towel, and nude facilities are rare. I'm familiar with German practices. So I think it is safe to say common, not pervasive. The Larsson painting should go, I think. I guess point I'd make is that naturism and public nudity aren't the same thing, really. Kids running about naked aren't naturists, any more than I am when I step onto the deck in the morning with my coffee in the buff, or a model posing nude for a painting. As you suggest, it is a social activity, and I think the pictures should reflect that. --Nuujinn (talk) 10:45, 13 September 2011 (UTC)