Talk:Nazism

Etymology

I'm not sure about the etymology. My understanding is they were originally called Nazi-Sozi, on the pattern of the Social Democrats who were called Sozi, and that Sozi was later dropped. The nickname "Nazi" from Ignatz might have influenced this, but the mere existence of the previously existing nickname for South German/bumpkins isn't sufficient evidence of a play on words.--Jack Upland (talk) 19:18, 29 October 2011 (UTC)

Indeed. There needs to be a mention of the fact that the first two syllables of "Nationalsozialist" is pronounced in German like "Nazi." [1] While the "Ignatz" thing might have had some influence, my understanding has always been that it's from the German pronunciation, particularly when one considers the fact that the "Nationalist" part was the primary defining characteristic of Nazism, in contrast to the "Sozis" and others. Bryonmorrigan (talk) 19:42, 29 October 2011 (UTC)

Sources widely claim that the term "Nazi" is related to the use of the "Sozi" short form for the German Social Democratic Party connotation rather than based on "Ignatz".--R-41 (talk) 19:29, 4 November 2011 (UTC)

I have always interpreted this as coming from "NAtionalsoZIalismus", but that's just based on my own personal impression as a native speaker of German, not on any explicit information I ever received anywhere. It's slightly weird, but the parallelism with the (apparently earlier) word "Sozi" makes it completely logical (via "National-Sozi"). The claim here that this new meaning took over an older word with negative connotations, though I have never heard of it before, seems absolutely plausible and is consistent with the derivation. Hans Adler 09:27, 5 November 2011 (UTC)

It's perplexing to understand why the Hebraic origins of this term are not noted. The word: "Nazi" is clearly Hebraic in origin, and is said by some to translate as: "German", although I doubt this is entirely true. It is clearly related to the word: Ashkenazi, who were said to be "German Jews", thus the translation of Nazi, by some, to mean German. However, the Ashkenazi Jews were/are Europeon Jews of historically recent conversion, and are in no way ethnically related to the Jews of biblical antiquity.

The term in Hebrew is closely related to: "Nozeri", which was a derogatory term used in the Talmud and the Midrash to denote the early Christians. In this usage Nozeri was also directly related the term Nazarenes. Considering this, the term Nazi was probably a derogatory term created and used by the Jewish community to denote the German Gentiles in the same manner as was used to denote the early Christians. It is helpful to note in research of this term that in vintage translation the Z and the S were interchangable.(nosi, nasi) I believe the term shares a common usage with the term Goy,(Goyim in plural), which essentially means non-Jew. In this sense the inclusion of the root in the name Ashkenazi would make some sense in that these Europeon Jews are not to be considered natural Jews. However, I understand that this would be considered independant research and ineligible for inclusion in a Wiki article. With this said, however, I do believe that, at minimum, the Hebraic origins merit notation in the article. Manson 23:04, 30 December 2011 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Manson48 (talk • contribs)

Well, that's an interesting and inventive use of the word "clearly". ;-)

Seriously though, if you have any respectable sources to back up that stuff feel free to suggest them. Just be aware that different words in different languages frequently share some of the same consonants without being connected so it will take rather more than somebody pointing out "But it has an N and a Z in it, it must be connected!" to persuade us that there is an Hebraic connection to the term at all. --DanielRigal (talk) 23:55, 30 December 2011 (UTC)

You are correct that this "would be considered independant (sic) research and ineligible for inclusion in a Wiki article". Your comments are therefore wasting other editors' time and are disruptive. TFD (talk)

Manson48 is clearly an anti-Semite—just look at the racist nonsense on his user page. He also repeats the racist lies that Ashkenazim are somehow not descended from Israelites. I strongly suspect he is a Nation of Islam adherent. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Cloudariseasd (talk • contribs) 01:18, 1 January 2012 (UTC)

Despite the claptrap above, there is no Hebrew etymological connection between "Nazi" and "Ashkenazi". In Hebrew, these words are not written in Roman characters, but in Hebrew, and are spelt and pronounced differently: נאצי with a Tsade is pronounced "Natsi", while אשקנזי with a Zayin is pronounced "Ashkenazi". The fact that both of these are commonly transcribed into English using the letter Z reflects a shortconming of English orthography, not the reality of Hebrew etymology. RolandR (talk) 00:04, 11 January 2012 (UTC)

I have to agree with RolandR. Most of this material about the supposed etymology of the word Nazi, like "Ignatius" and a link with "Ashkenazi", is rank speculation and in my opinion completely inaccurate.

Like Hans Adler, I had the strange mental assumption that Nazi comes from NAtional-SoZIalismus. But the more I think about it, the more I agree with Jack Upland about Nazi-Sozi, with the Sozi being dropped in common usage because it's cumbersome. Nazi is a quick and dirty verbal abbreviation of the word "National," which in German is pronounced "Natsional," or "Nazional." The German written letter "z" is pronounced like the letters "ts" in English. In German, the written word National, when spoken, sounds exactly the same as "Nazional." (4 syllables: Na zi o nal) The German word Sozial sounds exactly like it is written, if you use the English "z" that is in the word Nazi (3 syllables: So zi al).

"Nazi" is a German verbal abbreviation for "National," and "Sozi" is an abbreviation for "Sozial," which means "Social." The National Socialists (the German National-Sozialismus is the English National Socialism) were "Nazis", and the Socialists were "Sozis." Just think "Commies" for Communists. Nowadays the "Sozis" are the members of the Social Democratic Party, the SDP. But back in the first part of the 20th Century, there were Socialists (Sozialisten or Sozis), Communists (Kommunisten), Marxists (Marxisten), National Socialists (National-Sozialisten or Nazis), and so on. They began as ideologies, then crystallized into political parties. In the 1970s, in post-war Germany, the big political parties consisted of the Free Democrats (FDP), the Christian Democrats (CDU), the Social Democrats (SDP), and so on. I even saw a demonstration of the Communist Party in downtown Frankfurt when I was a youngster, complete with riot police and water cannon, so they were still alive as late as the 1970s. The anarchists were around too, it was the era of the Baader-Meinhof gang, which were constantly in the news when I was growing up. Rolandrlj (talk) 20:21, 4 February 2012 (UTC)

Both http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=Nazi and even Wiktionary http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Nazi implore that it's an abbreviation of Nationalsozialist. Finbob83 (talk) 07:43, 7 March 2012 (UTC)

Mark Forsyth does not seem to be a qualified degreed scholar or historian - just a guy with a hobby that runs a blog. Therefore, his book does not qualify as a Reliable Source, and the note citing The Telegraph from which the info comes from is not a valid reference. I'll wait 48 hours before changing it to hear arguments to the contrary, then use two scholarly works to identify the roots of the term "Nazi." HammerFilmFan (talk) 01:26, 13 March 2012 (UTC)

Disambiguation

Could someone please take a look at National Socialism (disambiguation) and National Socialist Movement for me? I made a couple of technical edits to bring them into conformance with WP:INTDABLINK ("creating [disambiguation] links to disambiguation pages is erroneous. Links should instead point to a relevant article.) and MOS:DABRL ("A link to a non-existent article (a "red link") should only be included on a disambiguation page when an article (not just disambiguation pages) also includes that red link.") but I have very little knowledge about the actual subject, so could someone familiar with the topic please check to see that the links themselves are correct? Also, please check the recent history and confirm that the deletions by another editor were correct. Thanks! --Guy Macon (talk) 18:11, 27 January 2012 (UTC)

Just as a followup, an editor at Talk:National Socialism (disambiguation) has some questions about some of the links. I answered the portion of his questions that deal with how to apply Wikipedia's policies and guidelines, but I have no idea whether or not the content changes he is advocating are correct. If someone who actually understands the topic could pop over there and help him, I would appreciate it. Thanks! --Guy Macon (talk) 02:32, 28 January 2012 (UTC)

Why is the intro in past tense? Is it denying that there are Nazi movements today?

I don't understand the past tense in the intro. It was put there a while ago and it has remained. There are Nazi movements today that are just as committed to Adolf Hitler's agenda as the Nazis of the 1920s to 1940s. It seems to be denying that Nazi ideology does or can exist today.--R-41 (talk) 03:36, 2 February 2012 (UTC)

Nazism refers to the historical movement that ended in 1945. Holdovers and people who want to return to it are called "neo-nazis". Most Nazis either left politics or moved to more mainstream parties. TFD (talk) 04:15, 2 February 2012 (UTC)

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Nazism's position on democracy as whole can be addressed at Talk:Fascism

There is a dispute as to whether fascism wholly rejected democracy or that it opposed conventional democracy - a majority rule representative democracy while claiming to support an authoritarian democracy. The discussion is at Talk:Fascism, it is already a bit heated, so be aware of what you are getting into.--R-41 (talk) 01:54, 6 March 2012 (UTC)