Talk:Nazism and occultism
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Not a very informative article
This article is mainly about the historiography of Nazi occultism but doesn't actually discuss it. It hardly provides any actual details on things like Wewelsburg, the Anenherbe, the influence of folkisch mysticism on Nazi ideology, the Thule Society etc. Rather the article seems to be more interested in discrediting the idea that Hitler was a sorcerer with real magical powers or something, which is kind of silly given that its rather obvious that he didn't have magical powers. I mean, sure, Hitler didn't actually commune with the dark forces and the Nazi party wasn't secretly run by shadowy mystical cults but he and many other Nazis still believed in various occult ideas to varying degrees but this article doesn't mention any of that. 126.96.36.199 (talk) 14:30, 21 June 2014 (UTC)
Much of the stuff mentioned in those documentaries is mentioned in other Wikipedia articles.
Such as this one, The fascination that runes seem to have exerted on the Nazis can be traced to the occult and völkisch author Guido von List, one of the important figures in Germanic mysticism and runic revivalism in the late 19th and early 20th century. In 1908, List published in Das Geheimnis der Runen ("The Secret of the Runes") a set of 18 so-called "Armanen Runes", based on the Younger Futhark, which were allegedly revealed to him in a state of temporary blindness after a cataract operation on both eyes in 1902.
All they were saying was about the uses of Nazi runes and other symbols. What is so criminal about that? Much of the material covered in those dcoumentaries is covered in OTHER Wikipedia articles.
Patchman123 (talk) 01:14, 5 April 2011 (UTC)
Yet, in those documentaries, there is mentioned Himmler's interest in the occult, which is mentioned on this website. This too is mentioned in the documentary "Hitler and the Occult"
Himmler became convinced that Germany's future rested in the stars and he was a keen astrologist and cosmologist. He also believed that the SS were the Twentieth Century's Teutonic Knight. Many SS ceremonies were held at night in castles lit only by flaming torches. He recommended that SS officers had only leeks and mineral water for breakfast and he would only have 12 people at a time sitting around his table - as King Arthur had done. Himmler became very interested in the occult. He saw the SS as being a new type of people - soldiers, administrators, academics and leaders all rolled into one. The SS, in the mind of Himmler, were to be the new aristocracy of Germany.
Patchman123 (talk) 01:16, 5 April 2011 (UTC)
This article does not adhere to the NPOV criteria; is there any way for it to be refined to reflect a more factual basis for Nazi mysticism? I do not know if this is true or not, but I've heard that there were several books that were required reading for those in the SS and Hitler Youth that had references to the occult in them; having said this, I believe that if it were true that the Nazis engaged in practicing magic, then there should be some kind of evidence to suggest such a notion (ie concepts mentioned in Hitler's speeches, propaganda posters, symbols that accompanied Hitler during his travels, speeches made by propaganda ministers, etc).
Just finished looking at the sig rune (origin of the lightning bolt symbol); discovered that the Nazis changed its original meaning to "god of victory" and that it was a reference to Odin, a mythological god. If the nazis didn't practice magic, then why would they glorify a pagan deity and associate it with Hitler? Isn't divination "looking for help outside yourelf"? And didn't Hitler also associate himself in some way with Apollo?
This vs Religious aspects of Nazism
attempt to improve
I tried to re-arrange the article and re-write it without deleting much of what anyone else had written. Doctor Goodrick-Clarke (rest his soul) has done the heavy lifting, but the trouble is to try and organize and integrate what he has written with everything else
I think the main problem is you are dealing with two completely different ideas.
Idea 1 is that The Occult controlled/were the Nazis.
Idea 2 is that occultist ideas trickled down to the Nazis.
This idea is a little tricky, i mean its really slippery to me. But you have to understand they are completely different. Not even in the same ball park together. But Goodrick-Clarke discusses both of them so its really confusing.
Another way to look at it is like this. Ask two questions.
1. Did the Nazis believe in Conspiracy Theories?
2. Were the Nazis a Conspiracy?
These are clearly two different questions, but it can be quite easy to get them mixed up with each other, considering all the unusual and bizarre terminology and jargon you have to dig through any time you want to try to study this area of history.
Crowley and Hitler
There are also unverifiable rumours that the occultist Aleister Crowley sought to contact Hitler during World War II. Despite several allegations and speculations to the contrary (e.g. Giorgio Galli) there is no evidence of such an encounter. In 1991, John Symonds, one of Crowley's literary executors published a book: The Medusa's Head or Conversations between Aleister Crowley and Adolf Hitler, which has "definitely" to be understood as a literary fiction. That the edition of this book was limited to 350 also contributed to the mystery surrounding the topic. Mention of a contact between Crowley and Hitler—without any sources or evidence—is also made in a letter from René Guénon to Julius Evola dated October 29, 1949, which later reached a broader audience."
There is quite a lot of primary source material indicating that Crowley, while enthousiastic about Mussolini and fascism, was extremely hostile towards Hitler and nazism (which, as many people seem to forget, was quite distinct from Italian fascism), an attitude he shared with contemporaries including Winston Churchill. 188.8.131.52 (talk) 13:44, 19 November 2012 (UTC)
Nazi Extermination Camp ”Ley Lines”
While theories about Nazis and Ley Lines are certainly within the purview of this article, the material being added here would need to be sourced to a WP:RS rather than the single website "one-evil.org", which appears to be alone in propagating these theories. Also the connection between Occult Ley Lines and an alleged Vatican-financed conspiracy to exterminate the Jews is off-topic WP:COATRACKing. - LuckyLouie (talk) 16:57, 15 January 2013 (UTC)
- I agree with your revert for the reasons you have stated. The source cited is not RS and there are WP:FRINGE, WP:UNDUE weight and POV problems. I also agree that the subject of "Nazis and Ley Lines" may be a matter to mention in this article but it would have to be brought forth from well established WP:RS sources and presented/written from WP:NPOV. Kierzek (talk) 17:34, 15 January 2013 (UTC)