Talk:Netherlands

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See also Wikipedia:Netherlands for information on Wikipedia activities related to the Netherlands.

Ethnic groups

There have been some recent changes +reverts on etnicity. I would like to discuss here what would be best. At present, we use this CIA factbook entry as source. Do we have other sources that are relevant? And do those sources state anything specific on the presence/absence of Frisians and Caribbean Dutch/Antillean as ethnic groups? I am open to any other source, but would like to have consistency with a source on the page, and that why I have -until we have a new consensus- reverted to the version which is conformation witht he source... L.tak (talk) 10:46, 29 August 2011 (UTC)

Frisians are not a seperate ethnic group within the Netherlands. People from the Antilles are, but since three islands have joined the country the Nehterlands that's mearly a historical thing. The Dutch CBS (Centraal Bureau voor de Statistiek) only counts people from other countries as other ethnic groups. The Dutch wikipage about the inhabitants doesn't count Frisians either. So it is my question: why would the English wikipedia consider Frisians (not talking about those from Germany or Denmark) as a seperate ethnic group while they are not considerd as a seperate ethnic group within their own country?
Antilleans are a seperate group because they have a different cultural history, different cultural habbits and a completely different language. Frisian and Dutch are somewhat alike. Dqfn13 (talk) 16:34, 29 August 2011 (UTC)

Just had a check at the factbook... only Frisian as a language is mentioned, not as an ethnic group. Dqfn13 (talk) 17:52, 29 August 2011 (UTC)

Frisians are seen as an ethnic group and are internationally recognized as such. They have their own language, culture cuisine, history and so on. There are also major differences between the Dutch and Frisian language, as it has been argued that the (much older) Frisian language is closer to English then it is to Dutch. Polozooza (talk) 07:45, 30 August 2011 (UTC)

Unless there is a source with Frisian, it's pointless to even start discussing its inclusion. Chipmunkdavis (talk) 11:05, 30 August 2011 (UTC)

Sure, plenty of sources to be found. The Frisians as an ethnic group have been known since Roman times some two thousend years ago (Frisii), and all this time they have spoken the same ancient language. Related to Dutch? Probably. But much, much older and with a richer history to it. Frisian history is long, interesting and well-sourced. Frisian noblemen (not: Dutch nobleman from Frisia) took place in the Crusades in Medieval times. Polozooza (talk) 13:13, 30 August 2011 (UTC)

I think the question is one of "lumpers and splitters". In a place where some people see only 5 ethnicities, another one might see 50. If we add Frisian, we need at the very least a source stating that Frisian (and maybe Brabantian? or Achterhook) are separate ethnicities and what their percentages are in the Netherlands. And it should be discussed if such a source is better than the sources that don't (CBS, CIA). Just stating that sources exist doesn't help. I agree with Chipmunkdavis, that this discussion can only start when someone gives the link to a source! L.tak (talk) 13:33, 30 August 2011 (UTC)

The Frisian language is the only other language besides Dutch that has the status of an official, proper, language (not a dialect or merely a regional language). There are even Frisian nationalists who where elected into the provincial government. The same way the Scottish people are an ethnic group within Great Brittain, who speak English as either a first or a second language, you have many Frisian people (mainly the older generations) who speak Frisian (mostly West-Frisian) as a first language. In court, Frisian people have the right to have a language interpretor to translate for them when they are questioned, the same way a Turkish or a Maroccan born Dutch citizen would have. These are some sources to start with. They're in Dutch, and the first ones that popped up when I searched google. There is plenty of more where that came from, trust me. Polozooza (talk) 15:46, 30 August 2011 (UTC)

What's needed is a source that lists ethnic groups in the Netherlands that includes Frisian and whatever other ethnicities there are. As L.tak said, lumpers and splitters. Chipmunkdavis (talk) 15:52, 30 August 2011 (UTC)

I totally agree with you two, because as a Dutch native I've never heard of Frisians being seen as a seperate ethnic group. And why would Wikipedia treat Frisians different from Utrechters (people from Utrecht) or Achterhoekers (Achterhook, as it was spelled earlier at this page), those regions are about as old as Fryslân (Friesland, province) is.
Historrical Friesland used to range up untill Rotterdam, so that's correct, it is older then the Netherlands is. But, there's allways a but, Frisians have mingled with the current Dutch so that supposed ethnic group is not possible to determine. I know a young woman from Friesland, she speaks Frisian but she isn't ethnic Frisian... she's ethnic Indian. I've also never heard of a Frisian cuisine and Frisian culture, except for Fierljeppen but that's mearly the name, as it's historically also practiced in Groningen, Drenthe and parts of Germany. Dqfn13 (talk) 18:46, 30 August 2011 (UTC)

You may be a Dutch native, but I doubt you live in Friesland or are of Frisian ancestry. Your argument that "Utrechters" or "Achterhoekers" are actually ethnic groups is a ridiculous one; Frisians is an excisting article on many wikipedia's, and the ethnic group is well known throughout history. There are many historical figures with Frisian roots, as early as Radbod, King of the Frisians (8th century) or Mata Hari, (born Zelle, in Leeuwarden) or Doutzen Kroes, today, who has campaigned for Frisian culture and language in recent years. Frisians can be recognized by their distinctive names, names that often end with a "stra", "ga", "ma" or something similar. In medieval times, Frisians fought for centuries to maintain their lost independence, the last Frisian freedom fighter dying as late as 1523.

Indeed the Frisians have mingled with the Dutch, but that does not mean the ethnic group is no dead, no of course not! Jewish people, for example, have mixed with other races and cultures but they still have their distinctive names, language, culture and customs. Frisians can still be recognized by their last names such as Joustra, Schieringa, or traditional first names such Tjalling, Albe, Auke, Ate. You, as a non-Frisian living in Alkmaar can easily argue that a Frisian culture or language does not excist, but fact of the matter is: Frisian language is taught at school in Friesland. And West-Frisian is hardly a dialect, it's a proper language recognized officially as such by the European Union. It even has individual dialects; Frisian spoken in Leeuwarden greatly differs from that spoken in Dokkum, to name one example.

There are plenty of sources to be found, once again. Don't tell me Frisian culture or language does not excist, or that the Frisian ethnic group does not excist. That's just a silly lie. How about this lill' piece of historical evidence of their excistence? It's ridiculous of you to call to question the excistence of a known and documented ethnic group. And that's a whole different discussion. ;) Polozooza (talk) 19:30, 30 August 2011 (UTC)

Noone is denying Frisian its special place in history. And indeed the frisian language (the only language with an official status in the European Netherlands) is an important cultural feature. However, still, some institutes of fame (CBS, CIA) choose to group the Dutch as a single ethnicity (no doubt while recognizing several subgroups might exist). Just as your arguments are valid enough, so are theirs. For our discussion it's important to evaluate the source. Currently we use CIA (backed up by CBS for group number) and I would be interested in seeing your sources about the ethnic groups in NL. Only then we can discuss which source is most suitable for the infobox in the page (but remember: whatever the outcmome: we are not denying Frisian its place in history)! L.tak (talk) 21:49, 30 August 2011 (UTC)

@Polozooza, I will never, ever deny any of those claims... except for seeing the Frisians as a separate ethnic group within the country. Why would you call a group of people a separate ethnic group when they themselves don't see themselves as a separate group, are not treated as such and are not seen as such within the entire nation? Maybe that ethnic group mingled soo much, that they stopped excisting as a ethnic group, they mingled in too much with other cultures. If they would still excist, why have I never heard of them in Germany and Denmark?
And don't say I claimed Frisian language or culture do not exist entirly... I even told you I can understand both spoken and written Frisian, I'm just not able to answer in Frisian. I also never claimed Frisian to be a dialect. Dqfn13 (talk) 08:22, 5 September 2011 (UTC)

Finding a source for Frisians as ethnic group in The Netherlands could be difficult when: Belgium and the Netherlands define ethnic minority groups on the basis of their migrant background. source. They have recognized them as a national minority under the "Framework Convention for the Protection of National Minorities", but that doesn't imply being an ethnic group. DS Belgium (talk) 17:48, 8 September 2011 (UTC)

That does make them a national (ethnic) minority then, thus defined by law. Polozooza (talk) 17:54, 8 September 2011 (UTC)

This document only states the Frisians in Northern Europe. The word Frisian(s) only occurs once... so I couldn't find anything claiming the Netherlands sees Frisians as a minority or seperate enthnic group. So this source is still not for any help about Frisians. This source is about Roma and Sinti women. Dqfn13 (talk) 18:40, 8 September 2011 (UTC)

I didn't even know the Frisians were mentioned, the sole purpose was to show that the Netherlands only recognize ethnic groups among immigrants so looking for an official dutch source on the Frisians would be futile. And the "Framework Convention for the Protection of National Minorities" doesn't help either because etnicity is not the only reason for minority status, language, culture, religion and some others are equally valid. They didn't mention the basis for their decision in the document I saw but language would be the obvious one. DS Belgium (talk) 03:02, 9 September 2011 (UTC)

And now I find there's no exact definition of ethnicity, some sources taking language as a sufficient criterium. I will refrain from commenting further. DS Belgium (talk) 09:39, 10 September 2011 (UTC)

Agriculture

The section on agriculture is radically wrong, per the very report it links to as evidence! For instance, the section claims that the Netherlands accounts for 1/3 of the world's cucumber exports, while the report lists the figure as 8%! That's off by a factor of four. GeneCallahan (talk) 19:26, 12 September 2011 (UTC)

You're right. The Netherlands produces and than exports about 8% of the cucumbers. But it also resells another (about) 25% (which is also in the report albeit in rather obscure text) probably shipped through Rotterdam port from Spain into Germany making up for the 1/3. I tried to clarify the text. Arnoutf (talk) 20:21, 12 September 2011 (UTC)

= Military

Deleted the Picture of the Dutch leopard 2 tank due to budget cuz holland doesn't have MBT's anymore so its not relevant

INDEPENDENCE

It is wrong saying "Independence from the Habsburg Empire" because the "Habsburg Empire" was the Empire of the Emperor Charles V. Philip II and Pilip IV were NOT Emperors but Kings of SPAIN. So, more accurate would be saying "Independence from SPAIN".--83.53.166.189 (talk) 01:07, 28 November 2011 (UTC)

The Netherlands were never part of the Spanish crown territories. Therefore they did not become independent of Spain itself (although Philip II was primarily a king of Spain). Arnoutf (talk) 18:24, 28 November 2011 (UTC)

Pretty much the whole European continent is coloured

Why is that? Instead of being coloured only the Netherlands.

e.g

190.51.153.195 (talk) 13:39, 26 December 2011 (UTC)

That's because the Netherlands is quite small when compared to the whole of Europe. Jarkeld (talk) 22:40, 26 December 2011 (UTC)

If you read the legend you will see that the Netherlands is the only dark green bit on the map, but that the EU is coloured light green. The EU as a political/monetary union holds a lot of context for its members that is why it is indicated on these maps. Arnoutf (talk) 11:32, 28 December 2011 (UTC)

Demographics

Something is wrong with the numbers in the following sentence:

"According to Eurostat, in 2010 there were 4.8 million foreign-born residents in the Netherlands, corresponding to 11.1% of the total population. Of these, 1.4 million (8.5%) were born outside the EU and 0.428 million (2.6%) were born in another EU Member State.[68]"

Since the Netherlands only has about 16 mio inhabitants, 4.8 mio foreign-born can't make up 11.1 %. Unfortunately I don't have the time right now to get better numbers but this should be noted.

91.115.86.125 (talk) 14:32, 4 January 2012 (UTC)

Fixed typo 4.8 -> 1.8 per source, thanks. Materialscientist (talk) 00:58, 5 January 2012 (UTC)

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