Talk:New Caledonia

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Location map[edit]

I think the location map http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:LocationNewCaledonia.png shown to the right should be updated. Currently it is hard to place New Caledonia on a first glimps. Only when I looked at it closer I spotted Australia half hidden behind the inbound world map which hides most of the "visible" land mass.

I would suggest to show New Caledonia in combination with full Australian, meaning to move the inbound map away from Australia, e.g. upper right corner. 210.80.142.30 (talk) 02:01, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

--

Agreed, I had to google it. Looks like a beautiful place.

~~mb~~ —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mattbyrne (talkcontribs) 06:53, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

older entries[edit]

good, but just add our native name for New Caledonia

You can edit the page yourself! David.Monniaux 23:41, 14 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Kanaky - Polynesian word for "New Caledonia"?[edit]

The article states that the Polynesian word for New Caledonia is Kanaky (in the first line). The origins of the word Kanaky are not known and there are several hypotheses. It may be derived from a Polynesian word. However this does not imply that Kanaky is a Polynesian word. In any case "Polynesian" is not a single language. Saying that Kanaky is the Polynesian word for New Caledonia is like saying that "New Caledonia" is the Roman word for the archipelago. (I.E. Just because the term "New Caledonia" has Roman roots does not mean it's part of the Latin language)

"Nouvelle Caledonie" and "New Caledonia" are the official names given by the French administration. Kanaky is an alternative name that is in popular use in all the main indigenous languages of New Caledonia as well as English and French.

I propose to edit the page to remove "Polynesian: " as a descriptor of the name "Kanaky" and replace it by "Alternative name: ".

Does anyone have any comments?

The name was actually not brought there by Polynesians, but by whalers, blackbirders, missionaries and filibusters who suppesedly picked up the word in Hawai'i and used to indiscriminately as a generic term for all the native populations of the Pacific islands. There is a Polynesian language spoken in Ouvéa, I think, plus a lot of migrants that speak Wallisian or Tahitian who arrived during the last century. Otherwise the islands are thoroughly Melanesian. --Big Adamsky 01:35, 23 November 2005 (UTC)
I do know that Espèce de Canaque! is a curse used frequently by Captain Haddock of Hergé's cartoon Tintin. If I remember correctly the local spelling, kanak makes a lot more sense than the french spelling canaque in relation with the local languages. The older melanesians object to the use of the word, probably on the grounds that it is racial slur, however the younger are embracing the term, similar to the Black pride movement in the United States - GSchjetne 09:43, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

From its heading, I expected that this section would explain how the island came to be called "New Caledonia", but it doesn't. I am curious to know why an island on the other side of the world would be named after an area of Great Britain, especially when it has a French colonial heritage. Perhaps this section could be enhanced to explain this before discussing the alternative name(s). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.234.138.78 (talk) 01:46, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

Maine, Vermont, (New) Orleans, Detroit, Des Moines, and many, many more in the world are French names in english speaking countries. What to make of this ? That history is a complex subject. Don't try to understand it if you were educated in the US. Just stick to the clichés so dear to the americans heart, ok ? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.46.113.190 (talk) 04:24, 5 August 2008 (UTC)
First many Melanesian (and not Polynesian) call their country new Caledonia and not Kanaky (sure not all of them but many of them)
Second the word Kanak was write Canaque in the time of penitentiary colony and was use as an insult first but the Melanesian change the spelling and the sense for it to be their emblem — Preceding unsigned comment added by Bonzu (talkcontribs) 23:58, 29 November 2012 (UTC)

Ecology[edit]

Should this actually read, "..and makes a funny cooing sound."? (see bolded text below)

"The Cagou, which cannot fly, has a large crest and a funny cooing, and is a national symbol. The niaouli, whose sap smells like camphor, is used to treat head colds."

--Randolph 16:29, 10 Apr 2005 (UTC) I think it should!!

Lat-long[edit]

I am looking for lat-long coordinates for this new Caledonia.

Laurel Bush 18:46, 12 July 2005 (UTC).

From the CIA fact book the LAT-LONG for New Caledonia is 21 30 S, 165 30 E Goggle Maps

help[edit]

hi im monique im in australia vic i found this site verry intresting and helped me out a lot wit my french work so thak youto all those people who helped

Flags[edit]

Hi all

Added : The French flag, official flag of the NC, at the head of page, near the independence flag "Kanaky". I thus hope to satisfy the claims of all, regarding the various points of view on this significant subject... Florent

I wrote my thesis on the flag issue in NC after having done some field work there. This page should follow the example of the Western Sahara page, where they decided in the talk-page that no flag should be shown at the top (but perhaps further down), since the independentist flag is not official but is only a popular/cultural symbol and the metropolitan flag is primarily associated with the controlling state which is not identical with the territory. --Big Adamsky 01:28, 23 November 2005 (UTC)
How about removing the flags altogether? Or at least not havning them at the top of the article. The current layout of the page is not very appealing, it looks patchy and visually unbalanced with all those images cramped up in the corner and squeezing the text downwards and to the left.... --Big Adamsky 00:03, 6 December 2005 (UTC)
Totally agree. I am removing the flags now. The only symbols/emblems of New Caledonia that are official are the logos of the Congrès and of the Gouvernement of New Caledonia, which show a Pacific shell (shellfish). Maybe these could be shown in the article, but I am not sure. Hardouin 17:41, 18 December 2005 (UTC)
I think the Kanaky flag makes sense later on in the article next to the relevant discussion - like in this old revision. Thanks/wangi 17:49, 18 December 2005 (UTC)

Two New Caledonias!![edit]

This should have a disambiguation page; I'm writing historical entries for British Columbia etc, and the northern interior of the province was (and still is sometimes) named New Caledonia, which was a Hudson's Bay Company fur district; links from the British Columbia and Hudson's Bay pages mentioning New Caledonia are currently directed to the South Seas.

Skookum1 03:02, 31 October 2005 (UTC)

Problems with climate and natives[edit]

The open pit mining of nickel was mentioned in to be a problem in the Weltspiegel (a good TV-documentaion). The heavy rain falls and the hills lead to landslide. The native people there have nearly no chance against the French government and the big companies. May be this could be a point for the article. Stone 19:08, 29 January 2006 (UTC)

WikiProject?[edit]

Would there be any interest in starting a New Caledonia WikiProject? I'll try to summon some people in New Caledonia and see if they want to contribute as well. -- GSchjetne 09:35, 17 March 2006 (UTC)

Definitely! Count me in. //Big Adamsky 13:00, 17 March 2006 (UTC)
I can't really contribute too much, but if you start it, I would be highly interested in anything you write about the New Caledonian independence movement. ;) —Nightstallion (?) 13:31, 17 March 2006 (UTC)

Caledonia - Scotland conexion[edit]

There's a reference to Caledonia being an ancient name for Scotland. This is not exactly true. The area designated Calydonia by the Romans consisted in only the Scots Highlands. Scotland itself was called Alba, as it still is today in Gaelic, although with a different pronunciation. In the Middle Ages, the name Scotia also gained currency. Furthermore, the Romans used the spelling Calydonia not Caledonia, but the spelling was later confused by Mediæval writers. 207.118.94.190 07:47, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

What what what? Romans didn't have "y"s, guy! And I think it would be Caledonia, not Calidonia -- the latter just doesn't look right, although they did use "i" where we often use "y" -- where'd you get that spelling????

~~mb~~ —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mattbyrne (talkcontribs) 06:59, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

I think the previous user meant "the Greeks used the spelling 'Kalydonia' (or Kalydon)", with the 'y' replacing the letter upsilon. Romans used greek language in some circumstances, like latin is still used nowadays in some fields. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.87.130.4 (talk) 05:31, 16 August 2012 (UTC)

Infobox[edit]

I have corrected the most obvious flaws in the infobox. However, I think the country infobox format is quite inappropriate and cumbersome for French overseas territories. It would be better to create a dedicated Template:French_overseas_territories_infobox which would be used for New Caledonia, French Polynesia, Wallis and Futuna, Mayotte, and Saint Pierre et Miquelon. Hardouin 13:11, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

Why named after Scotland?[edit]

Why was this Territory named after Scotland?

I'm not sure if this answers the question "why", but similar European names for nearby places included New Britain, New Hebrides, New Zealand, New Holland and New South Wales. (Some of these names are now defunct.) -- Avenue 09:01, 23 July 2006 (UTC)


Captain Cook, who was the first European to sight the islands, was struck by the prominent native conifers he saw growing near the sea, and it supposedly reminded him of Scotland, hence his inspiration for naming the terriroty.

POV that should be removed?[edit]

This list includes such places as the American Samoa, the British Falkland Islands or the New Zealand territory of Tokelau, but noticeably it does not include places like Tibet, Scotland or West Papua, which has led to its reputation as a politically biased list. Strikes me as a point of view comment that should be removed. Would go in that article, not this one.--205.155.72.125 19:41, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

Overview map[edit]

It would be nice to include an overview map showing the location of New Caledonia in relation to over regional countries and continents (Australia). The current map could be located anywhere in the seven seas. --NoahElhardt 16:14, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

I agree with this completely. --Jsaxton86 20:20, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

Merger discussion[edit]

I thought I'd bring to attention that Demographics of New Caledonia is suggested to be merged into this article. Delta TangoTalk 00:29, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

Proposed WikiProject[edit]

In my ongoing efforts to try to include every country on the planet included in the scope of a WikiProject, I have proposed a new project on Melanesia at Wikipedia:WikiProject Council/Proposals#Melanesia whose scope would include New Caledonia. Any interested parties are more than welcome to add their names there, so we can see if there is enough interest to start such a project. Thank you for your attention. Badbilltucker 17:15, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

I see the project has been started already. I was the one who proposed the New Caledonia wikiproject in the first place, however I never got around to get it started. But putting NC under this wikiproject is actually an excellent idea. --GSchjetne 07:18, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

Indigenous languages?[edit]

I just wandered into this article because I needed a quick reference about some of the indigenous languages of this territory. I am absolutely astounded to find that the article contains no information about them at all. That is absolutely incredible, the more so for an article that apparently has received some sort of honours within Wikipedia. Shame on the editors of this article and on Wikipedia for consenting to such blatant bias! --A R King 10:28, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

This is a very interesting point, as a lot of native (melanesian) languages are in use, which are considered by linguists as true plain languages, not dialects. Some grammar books have been edited. Languages families are connected to "custom areas" (aires coutumières) and to original tribes and their allies. They are also studied in school as options. The subject would deserve a paragraph on it own. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.171.79.110 (talk) 05:00, 13 May 2010 (UTC)
This has been taken care of at New_Caledonia#Languages. There are See alsos that lead to a fuller exposition as well. GeorgeLouis (talk) 07:09, 23 February 2011 (UTC)

Currency[edit]

Surely they are using Euros now ??? 80.229.222.48 (talk) 19:05, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

No, the CFP franc is still the currency, since its separate to the former French franc; it is however I believe pegged to the Euro at about 80:1. Tarcus (talk) 00:42, 16 December 2007 (UTC)

Just a correction: one euro is about 119.33 CFP francs, not 80. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.87.130.6 (talk) 02:26, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

Whoops; got it confused with Australian Dollars. Tarcus (talk) 07:33, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

Whaling in New Caledonia[edit]

I'm sorry, but I've seen that statement about British or American whalers establishing an "oil extraction plant" (the proper term is a shore or whaling station) on Lifou, but I've yet to see the primary document supporting this information. I believe this information stems from a travel guide about New Caledonia, which doesn't appear to cite its source. Until someone provides me with a source, this statement will remain off this page. Jonas Poole (talk) 07:16, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

Recent issue of New Caledonia Weekly references this in the History section - here's the link [1] —Preceding unsigned comment added by RichInSydney (talkcontribs) 10:40, 27 October 2008 (UTC)
The pdf won't open. My computer says the file is damaged. Jonas Poole (talk) 01:02, 29 October 2008 (UTC)
Well, it finally opened. Thanks for the link, but, not surprisingly, the New Caledonia Weekly simply repeated the same claim made by the travel guide mentioned above. Also, it made some glaring mistakes. First off, the British were the first to send a whaling expedition to the Pacific, not the Americans as the article claimed. Also, it referred to whaling vessels as whaleboats, two very different things. A whaleboat is a 28-30-ft open boat used to catch whales, wheras a whaling vessel (the proper term is whaleship) processed the whales. I can't tell you how embarrassed I was for the paper when I saw that they refered to the Charles W. Morgan (a whaleship) as a whaleboat! As it stands, the paper added nothing, and the article shall remain unchanged until a primary source is provided, or at least a secondary source that provides a source itself! Jonas Poole (talk) 02:09, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

New Caledonian Crow[edit]

Shouldn't there be a reference to the New Caledonian Crow? After all, this crow has caused quite a stir in media and in the scientific community and has certainly attracted attention to the country. There is even a postage stamp about the bird. I'm not quite sure in whihc section this would fit though. Any ideas? --212.201.75.243 (talk) 21:28, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

In the ecology section (or elsewhere) could be a "flora and fauna" subsection. - Jmabel | Talk

POV tag[edit]

I'm doing POV tag cleanup. I see no discussion here about the tags on this page. Very often pages are tagged by passers-by with no investment in the article - often long ago. I'm not going to alter this article myself, as I see it is actively edited. I would suggest that if you have a consensus of NPOV, that you feel free to remove any tags that don't belong.Jjdon (talk) 22:54, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

New Anthem[edit]

According to this and other articles, New Caledonia has a new anthem. This page has recordings. Someone should update the page to reflect this. Inkan1969 (talk) 23:28, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

Turmoil and Jean-Marie Tjibaou's death[edit]

Though a higly delicate and controversial subject, the turmoil period is to shortly exposed. One marking point is the article finishing on Jean-Marie Tjibaou's assassination : it's important to precise he was assassinated by independantist melanesians who considered him as a traitor, just because he had the courage to put an end to ethnic violence and decided to look towards the future rather than looking to the past. The article lets suppose everything, even he could have been assassinated by europeans... Which is wrong. Please be precise if you intend to talk about things of such gravity ! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.171.79.110 (talk) 05:10, 13 May 2010 (UTC)

I completely agree whit you but you will see than admins choose if you are reliable or not and sometime cultivate doubt(if you are concerned you are not always reliable because some news papers may have say the opposite of you) i'll be please to know if anyone here have been to New-Calédonia but i'm quite sure they are not many — Preceding unsigned comment added by Bonzu (talkcontribs) 00:09, 30 November 2012 (UTC)

Subdivision[edit]

The link to aires coutumières no longer works. Any suggestions for a new link? —Preceding unsigned comment added by RichInSydney (talkcontribs) 10:44, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

Plagiarism?[edit]

Paragraph that begins "The plight of..." under section "Ecology and politics" appears to be almost word-for-word from the following article:

http://74.125.95.132/search?q=cache:bDnfY3-100EJ:www.virtuoso-tech.com/Documents/New_Caledonia.doc+inco+mine+new+caledonia+latitude+longitude&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=4&gl=ca

To find it, do a search on "The plight of". --Atikokan (talk) 21:21, 16 January 2009 (UTC)

the arror furor games are there in 2009 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 155.205.200.19 (talk) 23:57, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

Flags[edit]

The use of the "Kanaky" (or pro-independence flag) JOINTLY with the French flag on the public buildings is now possible since the 13th July 2010. But it is only a "wish" of the local Congress, and not a law : that's de facto possible to use the two flags everywhere, but de jure the only official flag of civil, state and official representation in New Caledonia, as part of the French Republic, is the french flag. And the use of the Kanaky flag is only possible as a local flag always jointly with the French flag. So, is it possible to include in the infobox the both (the Kanaky and the French flag). Otherwise, I think the French flag must be only used until a clear definition of the local flag by the law. And for the anthem (Soyons unis, devenons frère), it's for the moment only a proposition, and the Congress has not adopted it yet. Thank you. --Tharkunen (talk) 07:52, 25 July 2010 (UTC)

Here is a source to back up above statement, flag was raised in a symbolic gesture, it still does not have equal status to the French one. [2] Chipmunkdavis (talk) 15:34, 6 August 2010 (UTC)
The Caledonian flag is used as the Scottish flag is used in Scotland; the French flag is actually that of the French Republic. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.101.187.171 (talk) 16:44, 27 November 2010 (UTC)

"Political brand names"[edit]

"Political brand names" (a phrase currently used in the article) seems to me rather non-neutral to be in the article's narrative voice with no attribution. - Jmabel | Talk 01:48, 8 August 2010 (UTC)

Situation of NC within France[edit]

On Administrative_divisions_of_France#Overseas NC has a unique position within France. Outback the koala (talk) 01:38, 30 November 2010 (UTC)

Territorial collectivity exists everywhere but here. Outback the koala (talk) 01:40, 30 November 2010 (UTC)
Okay so Worldstatesmen gives a timeline; I'm not sure how helpful that is, but the last thing is "collectivité sui generis" (page redirects to New Caledonia). I'm not sure how helpful the government website will be. Nightw 01:48, 30 November 2010 (UTC)
Night, I starting to see it more as an unincorporated territory now than anything else, while I had thought of it before as integral. Is this a fair assessment? Outback the koala (talk) 01:50, 30 November 2010 (UTC)
My french isnt what it used to be so the gov site wont be too helpful. Outback the koala (talk) 01:52, 30 November 2010 (UTC)
Thought you were Canadian? Face-wink.svg Nightw 02:04, 30 November 2010 (UTC)
Ha! Yes, thank you, I feel bad about it all the time. Outback the koala (talk) 03:10, 30 November 2010 (UTC)
Way better link here [3]. Outback the koala (talk) 01:56, 30 November 2010 (UTC)
I'd say we should just mimic these websites and say whatever they do. Why don't we just use "collectivité sui generis", as that appears to be what may have been used in the legislation? Nightw 02:10, 30 November 2010 (UTC)
Or use general translation = "unique territorial collectivity", with the link? Nightw 02:11, 30 November 2010 (UTC)
That works for me, although I'm still fuzzy on what it means exactly... Outback the koala (talk) 02:27, 30 November 2010 (UTC)
Oh, so am I. I'm probably not the best editor to be consulting on this. Nightw 02:37, 30 November 2010 (UTC)
Probably means it can't be easily defined, something that can no doubt be expanded somewhere in the body. Chipmunkdavis (talk) 03:21, 30 November 2010 (UTC)


Currently (2012), New Caledonia is a "collectivité sui generis", which means it has its own specific status and cannot be described with regular terms used for other overseas countries and territories. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.87.130.4 (talk) 05:38, 16 August 2012 (UTC)

cut (unread) from Languages of New Caledonia[edit]

  • I'm cutting stuff from Languages of New Caledonia and moving it here. if it's wrong, please don't scold me. I have not even read it. I am just moving it in case here are a few usable sentences...
  • History of New Caledonia

We know little about the New-Caledonian before the arrival of the English, with the famous navigator James Cook, in 1774, but it seems that the first occupants would have appeared approximately 5000 years ago from Asia. There would also have been some waves of immigration from Pacific islands about 3000 years ago. Information is becoming clearer from 1774, when James Cook discover the first New Caledonia during his second expedition in the Pacific. He baptized this country “New Caledonia” for its resemblance with the Scottish Caledonia (his native country), which had itself been baptized as well by the Romans. Other islands have been discovered by other British explorers, from which the Loyalty Islands, but the English did not find great interest to New Caledonia and did not occupy it. In 1792, French came alongside the Isle of Pine, but this is only in 1825 that Jules-Sebastien-Cesar Dumont d'Urville started to list of the New Caledonian coasts. In 1844, French militaries landed on the principal island. The first local massacres began in 1847. Because of divergences, Melanesians killed twelve French sailors in 1850. To respond to these attacks, the rear-admiral took possession of the island in the name of France and then also took possession of the Isle of Pine. That is from that moment that started the political history of New Caledonia. At the beginning of the colonisation of New Caledonia, in 1853, New Caledonia was attached to French establishments of Oceania (French Polynesia). In 1854, Nouméa was chosen as capital and as port by the captain Tardy de Montravel. He renamed Nouméa “Port de France”, name that the city kept until 1866. Other cities and villages were created too, but the population was essentially constituted of sailors and soldiers. The native population was evaluated between 50 000 and 90 000 persons. New Caledonia is especially known because it was a penitentiary colony. Indeed, consequently to the failure of colonisation, Napoleon III decided, in 1864, to create a penitentiary colony on the territory, as the previous one created in French Guyana. This, not only to move the undesirables away from France, but also to contribute to the economic and social growth of the colony because the men, as well as the women, had to stay in the country the same number of years as the one of their imprisonment. In this way, New Caledonia received some 4300 prisoners as well as some thousands of Algerians few years later (following to a conflict with France). But it did not work at it was planned to: once they accomplished their sentence, the prisoners preferred to go back to the metropolis. So, they had to find a solution for them to stay: grant some land to the most deserving. The nickel rush helped a little to the colonisation of the country and to the emigration to the country. Natives did not like this immigration, because they were not favoured by it. They rapidly rebelled against it, but without success. They were still dispossessed of their lands in favour of the immigrants. Thus, Kanaks (the native speakers) were dispossessed of about 80% of their lands, were not considered and had to face the socio-economic inequalities. They were excluded from the lives of the Europeans before they were used as “cannon fodder” during the World War II.[1]

Infobox flag[edit]

-->

New Caledonia
Nouvelle-Calédonie
Flags of New Caledonia Emblem
Motto
"Terre de parole, terre de partage"[2]
Anthem
Soyons unis, devenons frères[2]
Capital
and largest city
Nouméa
Government Dependent territory
 -  Presidential Head of State François Hollande
 -  President of the Government of New Caledonia Harold Martin
 -  High Commissioner Albert Dupuy
Legislature Congress
Sui generis collectivity of France
 -  Annexed by France 1853 
 -  Overseas territory 1946 
 -  Sui generis collectivity 1999 
Area
 -  Total 18,576 km2 (154th)
7,172 sq mi
Population
 -  2011 estimate 252,000[3] (182nd)
 -  2009 census 245,580[4]
 -  Density 13.6/km2 (200th)
35.2/sq mi
GDP (nominal) 2010 estimate
 -  Total US$8.85 billion[5]
 -  Per capita US$35,436[5]
Currency CFP franc (XPF)
Time zone (UTC+11)
Calling code 687
Internet TLD .nc
ISO 3166 code NC

The background information on the flag situation, as far as I have read, is that the French flag is official throughout all of France, which New Caledonia is a collectivity of. However, due to New Caledonia's unique status, it was allowed to designate a second official flag, which was adopted alongside the tricolour. Is that an adequate summary?

The three options presented by the recent edits have been the Kanak flag, which is the New Caledonia specific one, the French flag, which is official in all of France including New Caledonia, or a horizontal presentation of both. Between just the Kanak and French flags (which I stress is purely a semantic distinction of convenience, New Caledonians do of course have French nationality, and not all New Caledonians are Kanaks), I think the Kanak flag should be used, as it more specifically identifies the area. The French flag is official in all of France, and so seeing it wouldn't help narrow down the territory in question. I would argue this is similar to how, for example, Queensland shows the state flag rather than the Australian one, although it's not a perfect analogy as France is officially a unitary state and Australia is a federal one. The dual flag image on the other hand, is another interesting solution. However, in its current state (File:Drapeaux de la Nouvelle-Calédonie.jpg), its inclusion in the infobox makes both flags rather small (it's also a jpeg, which is less versatile, but that's a minor issue).

Which of the three choices above do editors think is the best? Or, perhaps, we could use a vertical presentation of both flags, which should expand both to the standard infobox flag width (and perhaps could be made as an svg). If so, does the order of the flags matter, and if it does, what order? CMD (talk) 16:14, 9 August 2012 (UTC)

Agreed with CMD, the Kanak flag needs to be displayed. I'm not opposed including both, but as CMD says we'd need a better image with the flags stacked vertically so that you can actually see them. Alternatively, I could probably hack something up in {{Infobox country}} to allow for two flags as arguments. TDL (talk) 18:42, 9 August 2012 (UTC)
See my sandbox version of the template with two flags at right. TDL (talk) 19:09, 9 August 2012 (UTC)

The FLNKS flag is NOT the flag of New Caledonia. It's one of the two official flags. Displaying only the FLNKS flag is faulty, because it shows preference towards an ethnic group to the detriment of the other. Even the Oceania Football Association offered apologies for flying only the FLNKS (Kanak) flag after the first match day of the OFC Nations Cup in Honiara earlier this year. [4] The comparison with Queensland is also incorrect, because unlike Queensland, New Caledonia does not yet have its own flag (a New Caledonian flag still has to be designed and agreed between both communities), so as long as New Caledonia does not have its own flag, the two official flags flown in the territory are the FLNKS flag and the French flag, the former representing the Kanak community and the latter representing the European community. Displaying only one flag is POV and misleading. Der Statistiker (talk) 03:54, 10 August 2012 (UTC)

@CMD: New Caledonia was allowed to designate its own official flag in the Nouméa Accord of 1998, but so far no flag has been agreed between both communities. The FLNKS flag is certainly not the official flag of New Caledonia (it predates the Nouméa Accord, and was designed by the pro-independence parties), but the Nouméa Accord made it quite clear that an official flag for New Caledonia had to be designed and adopted by both communities. So far they haven't done it. So as a temporary measure the French state allowed to fly both the FLNKS and French flags, which in itself is a rather bizarre measure pushed forward by Pierre Frogier, an anti-independence politician who is embroiled in a feud with the other anti-independence leaders and came with this bizarre idea of the dual flags to corner the other leaders in the anti-independence camp. New Caledonian politics are very complicated. The Kanak senator of New Caledonia is opposed to independence and does not recognize the FLNKS flag. And the current president of the Congress of New Caledonia is a pro-independence Kanak who is president only because the anti-independence European Pierre Frogier and his party allied with him to topple the other anti-independence European leaders. As a result of these shenanigans, the Europeans are fed up with Pierre Frogier and his party, and they lost all their deputies in the legislative elections of last June (it's the rival anti-independence parties and bitter enemies of Pierre Frogier's party who won). Der Statistiker (talk) 04:09, 10 August 2012 (UTC)

@CMD#2: a vertical presentation of the flags would be incorrect, because it would give precedence to one flag over the other, which is not factually right. When representing France, only the French flag is used. When representing New Caledonia, both flags are used, and not flag as precedence over the other. The flags are flown side by side, at the same height. So only a horizontal presentation is factually correct. Now whether the FLNKS flag should be left and the French flag right or vice versa, there is no official rule regarding that as far as I know. On the website of the Congress of New Caledonia the French flag is left and the FLNKS French flag is right. [5] Der Statistiker (talk) 04:28, 10 August 2012 (UTC)

The sources I've read all say that the Kanak flag has become an official flag of New Caledonia, despite some objections. Do any of your source say it isn't? Also, there's no difference between the precedence given by having one on top and on on the bottom, and one on the left and one on the right. English reads left-->right, top-->bottom. Our infoboxes aren't flagpoles. I support TDL's infobox presentation. CMD (talk) 07:51, 10 August 2012 (UTC)
Right, displaying one flag first (left) gives preference to it as well. This isn't a concern with real flags since they can be viewed in 360deg and thus there is no "first". TDL (talk) 20:26, 10 August 2012 (UTC)

I disagree. Displaying one flag above the other clearly implies the precedence of one over the other. Displaying them side by side, on the other hand, is less clear as to which has precedence (some would say the left flag, other people would say the right flag), so it's more neutral. As to which one should be left and which one should be right, we can simply follow what the Congress of New Caledonia does on their website: French flag left and FLNKS flag right. Der Statistiker (talk) 00:12, 11 August 2012 (UTC)

@ CMD: "an official flag" is not the same thing as "the official flag". There's a reason why the government of New Caledonia complained to the Oceania Football Association when they flew only the FLNKS flag. And if you're in doubt, write to them, they'll tell you exactly the same thing I'm telling you. Displaying only the FLNKS flag is a misrepresentation of reality. Der Statistiker (talk) 00:12, 11 August 2012 (UTC)

Well I suppose we'll have to agree to disagree on left=>right preference. However, you still haven't addressed the main issue that the image you are using is indecipherably small. TDL (talk) 00:57, 11 August 2012 (UTC)
Computer screen appearance shouldn't trump factual accuracy. If New Caledonia uses two flags we must use two flags, and not nitpick one just because "it looks better on my computer screen". Der Statistiker (talk) 01:51, 11 August 2012 (UTC)
Please re-read my proposal as you seem to have misunderstood it. How is displaying the two flags horizontally more "factually accurate" than vertically? TDL (talk) 02:28, 11 August 2012 (UTC)
I never said it was "the official flag". My argument was that as there were two official flags, the one that more closely identifies the area in question is preferable. On your "it looks better on my computer screen", WP:ACCESS is important. As for top/bottom left/right, I see no great change in precedence in either one. We're an encyclopaedia, not a political site, or a building's flagpole. We're not bound by any particular flag code. If political formalities get in the way of clearly presenting information to the reader, we should ignore those political formalities. CMD (talk) 06:27, 11 August 2012 (UTC)
In what way exactly does the FLNKS flag "more closely identifies the area in question"? I'm sorry but what you said is insulting to the 65% of New Caledonians who do not recognize the FLNKS flag as their flag. As for a vertical presentation, then which flag will you put on top? The FLNKS one? Then the anti-independence New Caledonians will accuse you of bias. The French one? Then the pro-independence New Caledonians will accuse you of bias. Der Statistiker (talk) 22:20, 11 August 2012 (UTC)
And in the horizontal presentation if you put the French flag first the anti-independence New Caledonians will still accuse us of bias and vice versa if we put the FLNKS flag first. Either way, someone is going to be offended. At the end of the day we are here to inform readers, not to appease the partisans. TDL (talk) 22:41, 11 August 2012 (UTC)
Use the Congress of New Caledonia's presentation: French flag left, FLNKS flag right. Nobody can accuse this presentation of bias since it is the presentation of the Congress of New Caledonia, which represents all the communities of New Caledonia: [6] Der Statistiker (talk) 23:00, 11 August 2012 (UTC)
You mean the Congress which is dominated by anti-independence members? Isn't that the very definition of partisan? If you can find a way to make two flags visible horizontally then I'll gladly support that. Otherwise, the only viable way to include two flags is vertically. TDL (talk) 23:23, 11 August 2012 (UTC)
The president of the Congress, Rock Wamytan, is a pro-independence Kanak, so try again! Der Statistiker (talk) 01:35, 12 August 2012 (UTC)
Please re-read my comment as you've obviously misunderstood it. I never claimed that he wasn't pro-independence.
Anyways, you're going around in circles and failing to address the issue at hand. There is clearly no consensus for your indecipherable image. You can either accept that and work constructively towards finding a mutually acceptable compromise or else we'll be stuck with the status quo FLNKS flag. TDL (talk) 02:15, 12 August 2012 (UTC)
The FLNKS flag more closely identifies the area is question for the simple and indisputable fact that it is only used for the area in question, as opposed to the French flag, which covers all of France; an area considerably larger than New Caledonia. If anyone takes insult at such a bland, apolitical, and self-evident fact, they need to reevaluate what they find insulting. CMD (talk) 14:52, 12 August 2012 (UTC)
The FLNKS flag is not "used for the area in question", the FLNKS is used by the pro-independence parties for the area in question. That's a major nuance! I can also design my own flag for, say, Jiangsu province in China, and claim that it's "used for the area in question" and insist that it should appear on top of the Jiangsu infobox instead of the Chinese flag. Twisted logic! Der Statistiker (talk) 16:12, 12 August 2012 (UTC)
If your Jiangsu flag was declared an official flag by Jiangsu's government and recognised as such by China's government, then that would be fine. Your political nuances are quite irrelevant to the objective fact that it's an official flag. CMD (talk) 17:54, 12 August 2012 (UTC)

Hi, for information the FLNKS flag was not declared official flag... It was just an proposition, an vow... Actualy we are waiting about a specific commission to choice a commun flag for New Caledonia... — Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.147.64.155 (talk) 23:54, 12 August 2012 (UTC)

According to the sources I've seen it was declared official, and it has flown side by side with the French one since Francis Fillion travelled to Noumea to give the flag the French state's blessing. I suspect it will remain official until a new flag replaces it. CMD (talk) 06:17, 13 August 2012 (UTC)

@CMD Hi. I do not know which sources you are using, but these 2 flags are NOT equivalent. The French flag STILL has precedence and should be shown at the top of this article. The FLNKS flag isn't official, it's a proposition. On top of this, it was "forced upon" the community which, according to the "Accords de Nouméa", is supposed to choose it. These "accords" signed in 1998 have more value than François Fillon's act (a complete political manipulation), by nature and law. This flag also has a strong political connotation - pro-independency rather than Kanak identity. Lastly, it is clearly disproved by the majority of the population, as "loyalists" (to the French Republic) are still a majority in New Caledonia. A fair warning to all newcomers : New Caledonia is a welcoming country, but there are many things that you won't know or fully understand until you come - even trustful documentaries and websites lack depth when considering such subjects. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.87.130.4 (talk) 05:49, 16 August 2012 (UTC)

How about this source: "New Caledonian Congress overwhelmingly voted to adopt the emblem of the indigenous movement, which features red, blue and green stripes with a yellow sun and black totem, as the nation's second official flag." So it seems that it is official and wasn't forced on anyone. Do you have any sources to the contrary? From what I've read, the dual flag situation is supposed to be a temporary measure until a flag is chosen by the community in accordance with the Accords de Nouméa, but negotiations on a common flag have repeatedly broke down. TDL (talk) 07:00, 16 August 2012 (UTC)
Apparently they're setting up a new commission, "but since 2010 both the French and Kanak flags have been jointly used on key public buildings." That it flies officially makes it far more than a proposition, and I'm sure the French flag has just as many political connotations to some.
I think that if both flags are shown in the infobox, we may as well put the French one first, as it has been used for a longer time. Seems as good a criteria as any. CMD (talk) 09:11, 16 August 2012 (UTC)

I admit that it is unclear, but here's the point : there is NO obligation for any of these buildings (or any official representation, such as sport events) to hoist the FLNKS flag, it is purely a political maneuver - the Congress isn't the only instution concerned by that decision. As of now, all New Caledonians have the French nationality, and must raise a French flag. Besides, as I already pointed out higher in this thread, the law clearly indicates that the inhabitants will have to choose a name and a flag for the country once/if it becomes independent, during the 2014-2018 (latest date 2022) period. Anything done or fixed before this period is merely temporary decision - in the case of the flag, only supported by about 35% of the population. I can agree that the FLNKS flag should be displayed at the top of the article, which is subject to debate already, but in no way should it take precedence over the French flag - in regards of the law AND by respect for the population. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.87.130.4 (talk) 21:42, 16 August 2012 (UTC)

Short edit (I'm sorry but I don't exactly know how to redact properly on Wikipedia...)
Here's the page on flag(s) of New Caledonia : http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drapeaux_de_la_Nouvelle-Cal%C3%A9donie. I suggest that you read its french version if you can, as it is more detailled and accurate than the english one. Specifically, "Usage conjoint des deux drapeaux" section says (loose, shortened translation) : "NC Congress wished that both flags flew together [...] / This wish does not imply any juridical bound, each collectivity is free to apply it or not. On July, 17, 1st minister F. Fillon hoisted both flags [...]. A circular from the 1st minister is expected to decide on which buildings the flags should be raised altogether. [...] "
As opposed to the english page : "French Prime minister François Fillon took part in a ceremony in Nouméa where the FLNKS flag was hoisted alongside the French tricolor, giving both flags official status". — Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.87.130.4 (talk) 21:57, 16 August 2012 (UTC)
I realize my expression skills in English aren't as clear as I'd like them to be. Here are the main points one should consider about this so controversial flag...
First, the french page about New Caledonia only displays the French flag at the top, and I do not understand why the english page would show another version.
Second point : after a tormented period of NC's history, every group reached an agreement that is now used as a foundation for the country's policies : Noumea Accord (I can't find a full source at the moment, but this french page shows the most relevant excerpts) : http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Signes_identitaires_de_la_Nouvelle-Cal%C3%A9donie (see "Débat autour du drapeau"). The Accord specifies that NC's people have to define a new flag and indicates the process to follow. In 2010, the Congress bypassed that process and, as I wrote, forced the double-flag upon the population. Other institutions have to agree with it in order for it to be official ; furthermore, the French government (in this case, 1st Minister F. Fillon) does not have a word in the matter, thus his act of hoisting the FLNKS flag is moot - once again, a purely symbolic and political move.
As you can see, the FLNKS flag may be popular among pro-independency people and unique to New-Caledonia, but it is not official, does not hold any value as far as law goes, and is rejected by a large majority of the population. Consequently, there is absolutely no reason to put this flag side by side with the French flag, let alone as a single flag at the top of this page (as it is currently the case). Once again, all my apologies for my lack of clarity or vocabulary. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.87.130.4 (talk) 05:18, 17 August 2012 (UTC)
I think we all agree that the FLNKS flag isn't the flag as specified by the Nouméa Accord. The dual flag situation is an interim solution until a single flag can be agreed to by both communities as specified by the accord. But until such time that there is a single official flag for New Caledonia, we should represent what reliable sources say about the situation: that they have two official flags. Once a common flag is adopted we'll surely replace the current flags with it.
You stated above that you'd accept displaying both flags in the infobox. Are you OK with the general layout of the infobox I proposed above with both flags? If so, let's make that go live. TDL (talk) 05:50, 17 August 2012 (UTC)

Hi Dan, yes I'm fine with that layout, if you can edit the main page (I have absolutely no idea how to do it !). Displaying only one flag, French or FLNKS, is misleading to anyone not familiar enough with NC's specificities. IMHO the order (which one is on top) is a non-issue, whenever you have to display two elements, you'll have to put one on top, or on left-side...It really does not matter. Thanks for your understanding. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.87.130.4 (talk) 00:22, 20 August 2012 (UTC)

Great, I agree with you on the ordering. Either choice is going to offend someone. Personally I could care less, I just thought that it looked a bit better having the smaller flag on top. I've requested an edit to the infobox template to allow for two flags (the template is currently fully protected). Once that's done I'll add both flags to the main article. TDL (talk) 04:49, 20 August 2012 (UTC)

The FLNKS Flag represents ONLY the Kanaks, it is not and by far a flag choosen by the entire population of New Caledonia out of which the kanaks account for only 35% to the most! To this very day, New Caledonia is a French territory and will remain so for years to come still! The hoisting of the FLNKS flag alongside the French emblem was done out of a gesture to calm things down and open a dialogue with the kanak minority. A common flag is still to be found but the way it looks it won't be tomorrow!Likewise the name of the island is the hot thing nowaday, the independentists want to call it Kanaky & the rest of us, the majority that is, we sort of like to keep it as it is, New Caledonia! Named by jimmy Cook many years ago! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 61.5.209.36 (talk) 20:15, 21 August 2012 (UTC)

I agree, but our politicians have decided to display the 2 flags for now. Remember that most tourists and even French (European) people do not know about this controversy, and that they will come to this page looking for information. Displaying 2 flags at the top of the page will immediately indicate that it is a complex situation, and they will then refer to detailled sections and articles if they want to learn more. Putting only 1 flag, even if it's correct in regard of the law, would not represent the current situation accurately. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.87.130.4 (talk) 21:22, 21 August 2012 (UTC)
Yes check.svg Done - I've added the French flag to the infobox. TDL (talk) 09:04, 23 August 2012 (UTC)

Hello first of all if you want to had flag to a country try to put one who as been chose by is people http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/2f/Drapeau_Commun_NC.svg/220px-Drapeau_Commun_NC.svg.png for example because the kanak flag is imposed to the people and not recognized by all the people it was a syndicate flag in first and a violent one when they go on strike (very often) they stop on nothing and most of the time they just stuck all (economy, circulation, imports, ...). i would be with them if they were defending oppressed people but they prefer to defend thing than can shock in other country (for example they blocked the main road of new Caledonia to protest for a man who as been fired and guest what..... he was fired because he punch is boss, so for them it is not sufficient to be fired ... if you don't thrust this it was the SAVEXPRESS society) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Bonzu (talkcontribs) 00:10, 15 November 2012 (UTC)

See the discussion directly above. As per numerous sources the FLNKS flag was not imposed on anyone: "New Caledonian Congress overwhelmingly voted to adopt the emblem of the indigenous movement, which features red, blue and green stripes with a yellow sun and black totem, as the nation's second official flag." ). As far as I'm aware, the flag you linked to has no official standing, and thus doesn't belong in the infobox. As for your political commentary, please see WP:NOTFORUM. TDL (talk) 01:45, 15 November 2012 (UTC)

Did you notice than the source i give is from New-Calédonia (http://www.drapeau-commun.nc/ here for the source of the flag) and the source you give is from a news paper that doesn't have any office here ... but sure we don't know who we are and you know the best for us... Just to know have you been even one time here? (i suppose no other way you won't do this) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Bonzu (talkcontribs) 21:01, 21 November 2012 (UTC)

As i don't have any answer i suppose you trust more news papers than government .... that show how reliable are your sources. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Bonzu (talkcontribs) 00:01, 30 November 2012 (UTC)

Here if at last you admit mistakes http://caledosphere.com/2012/12/28/le-grand-retour-du-drapeau-commun/ this is from a newspaper that have an office here if this is not reliable for you then lest just say LOL — Preceding unsigned comment added by Bonzu (talkcontribs) 03:36, 29 January 2013 (UTC)

I just saw the relative page on facebook and I was shock that only the FLNKS flag was show... New calédonia official flag is still the french flag even if its allowed to put the FLNKS flag on side. so please make sure that you guys fix this. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 115.126.173.205 (talk) 07:51, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

How much nickel?[edit]

The article Nickel mining in New Caledonia says: "The islands contain about 7,100,000 tonnes of nickel which is about 10% of the world's nickel reserves.". That is in contrast with this article: "New Caledonian soils contain about 25% of the world's nickel resources." Which one is correct? --HelgeStenstrom (talk) 14:38, 23 November 2012 (UTC)

  1. ^ Jacques Leclerc, L’aménagement Linguistique dans le Monde http://www.tlfq.ulaval.ca/axl/pacifique/ncal.htm
  2. ^ a b La Nouvelle-Calédonie se dote d'un hymne et d'une devise - LeMonde.fr
  3. ^ (French) Institut de la statistique et des études économiques de Nouvelle-Calédonie (ISEE). [www.isee.nc/etatcivil/telechargement/bilandemo2010.pdf "Situation démographique 2010"] Check |url= scheme (help) (PDF). Retrieved 2012-08-06. 
  4. ^ Cite error: The named reference pop-hist was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
  5. ^ a b [7]