Talk:New International Version
|WikiProject Bible||(Rated Start-class)|
|WikiProject Christianity||(Rated Start-class)|
Regarding this passage from the article:
- Among the differences in the TNIV is that it will use more gender-neutral language, referring in some places, for example, to "children of God" instead of "sons of God" and changing phrases such as "a man is justified by faith" to "a person is justified by faith." Male references to God, however, will not be modified.
Would it be fair to say that this is the same or similar approach taken to gender-neutral language that was used in gong from the Revised Standard Version to the New Revised Standard Version? Sounds the same to me, but I want to verify before changing the text. Thanks, Wesley
According to IBS:
2. Trademarks. NEW INTERNATIONAL VERSION® and NIV® are registered trademarks of International Bible Society in the United States and other countries. IBS, the IBS Logo, and IBSDIRECT.COM and the IBSDIRECT.COM Logo are trademarks and service marks of IBS. All other trademarks, service marks, and logos used in this Web Site are the trademarks, service marks, or logos of their respective owners. Other trademarks of IBS may be added from time to time on this site. In order to preclude confusion among our visitors, the trademarks and service marks of IBS may not be used in any manner in connection with any product or service that is not a product or service of IBS, without the prior written consent of IBS. By using this Web Site, you acknowledge the validity and enforceability of the IBS trademarks and agree that you will not in any way infringe, either directly or indirectly, the IBS trademarks.
- Not sure why the above was posted as it doesn't have anything to do with our use of the IBS and NIV names. In any case, I've removed the registered trademark symbols from the article, since we're under no obligation to mark third-party trademarks. Psychonaut 15:31, 22 Feb 2004 (UTC)
- 1 Line removed
- 2 "Non-Protestants" WERE involved
- 3 Copyrighted?
- 4 New category
- 5 "Textual Basis" and "Translation Type"
- 6 Recent Vandalism
- 7 Update and Overhaul
- 8 Isaiah 7:14
- 9 Barker
- 10 Question moved from main
- 11 Homosexuality
- 12 Criticism section
- 13 2011 vs 2010
- 14 Revised Standard Version
- 15 Controversy over 2011 revision
- 16 Legal threat?
- 17 Quote of Wright
- 18 Protecting the NIV?
I removed this line:
The translators used liberal textual criticism in translating this version. The New Testament is based mainly on Westcott and Hort's Greek text.
According to the NIV preface, the NIV used an eclectic Gk text - NOT W-H! iHoshie 13:05, Apr 15, 2004 (UTC)
"Non-Protestants" WERE involved
I am Lutheran (Missouri Synod) and most Lutherans tend to see ourselves as distinct from "Protestantism" since Luther predated that term. There were Lutherans involved in translation of the NIV. There were also Anglican/Episcopalian translators, and they often see themselves as closer to Roman Catholicism than Protestantism. I assume that by "Protestant" the article is referring to Christians in general who are not part of the Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox communions. Currently we use the NIV in our liturgy and as the basis for our Concordia Self-Study Bible, though we are adopting the English Standard Version once our new hymnal is released in 2006.--MarshallStack 17:50, 11 November 2005 (UTC)
The Prefix for the NIV itself says they drew across all main line christian denominations, including Catholic to prevent denomination-bias. Joncnunn 19:12, 10 April 2006 (UTC)
No, Roman Catholics were not involved in the NIV translation process (nor were Eastern Orthodox, incidentally). However, Anglicans were, and hence it surprises me that the NIV does not include the Apocrypha, as Anglicans use it (as do some Lutherans).--MarshallStack 04:31, 21 May 2006 (UTC)
A few years ago someone explained the reasoning behind the copyrighting of the NIV translation of the Bible, but I can no longer recall what it was. Does anyone have the reasoning for reserving the copyrights? --126.96.36.199 20:32, 19 November 2005 (UTC)
Probably so someone couldn't republish the entire NIV bible under their own name & copyright. Joncnunn 19:15, 10 April 2006 (UTC)
The category has been put up several times by authors, pastors, etc., however, someone from Zondervan keeps deleting them. Check the edit history and you'll see, they've made hundreds of deletions of any criticism beyond the ploy criticism they posted to make this biased document not seem too staged. This comment will probably be deleted as well. 188.8.131.52 (talk) 19:48, 21 March 2014 (UTC)
I'd love to see a new category added for criticisms (and responses to criticisms) regarding the NIV translation. Any takers? I'd give it a go myself but I'm a) happy with my NIV translation and b) not well-versed on the basis of criticisms. --JesusFreak Jn3:16 01:59, 24 January 2006 (UTC)
You'll get people who criticise any translation (especially King James Only people), and no translation is going to keep everyone happy. In my church (Lutheran Missouri Synod), most of our liturgy is still based around the NIV, though we're adopting the ESV as our semi-official translation...however, I imagine a lot of people are still going to be using the NIV. My pastor prefers the NASB.--MarshallStack 04:34, 21 May 2006 (UTC)
"Textual Basis" and "Translation Type"
Those numbers are unsourced and unexplained. Where do they come from and what do they mean? Peter Ballard 04:51, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
One of the recent vandals inserted this link http://www.talkjesus.com/bible-study-hall/13795-niv.html in the NIV entry he vandalized. I traced the IP to New York. In the post on the message board from Chad, Administrator of the website "Talk Jesus", who posted a long diatribe against the New International Version of the Bible, is in New York according to the location listed for him. Coincidence? I have no idea why adherents to the King James Version of the Bible continue to act this way. Knight1000 (talk) 04:10, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
Update and Overhaul
getting the broom and vacuum cleaner out
- Removed King James Bible propaganda
- Removed information and subject matter that seemed more like gossip belonging in a National Inquirer, some was pretty inflammatory and didn't have any references
- Removed information from infidels.org; quoting anything from infidels.org and expecting it to be unbaised is silly
- Removed information that the New International Version is tied with a conspiratorial homosexual agenda, this is beyond silly for anyone to even entertain this as substantive
- Discrepancy’s and problems with the codex Vaticanus and codex Sinaiticus, should go in those respective areas or another area. The NIV entry is not really a good place to air personal grips about codexs
- King James Onlyism debate information needs to go in its respective area, especially when the topics discussed have nothing to do with the NIV
- Added new information w/references
- Clean up the wording, article short and to the point, w00t!
- I appreciate your effort, and I'm glad a lot of that ridiculous KJV-only stuff is gone (if for no other reason than it belongs in an article on the KJV-only debate). But something about "evangelical bias" needs to go back in. I always thought that was a relatively widespread criticism of the NIV, and I've even noticed it myself FWIW. Peter Ballard (talk) 11:50, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
Shouldn't there be some reference to the fact that the NIV was created partly in response to the "young woman" translation controversy in the NRSV/RSV?--Sailor Titan (talk) 16:16, 11 February 2009 (UTC)
- Perhaps true of the New American Standard Bible; but since the NASB was already in existence I doubt that was true of the NIV. Peter Ballard (talk) 03:00, 12 February 2009 (UTC)
Why is Dan Barker the source for translation criticism? By his own admission he only has two years of undergraduate Greek to his name. Similarly, his criticism is simply in error.--Ari89 (talk) 18:15, 18 April 2009 (UTC)
Question moved from main
You refer to different manuscripts that are [perhaps more accurate under the section entitled criticisms. what are the names of these "superior" manuscripts" -- 184.108.40.206
A verse in Corinthians uses the word homosexuality although this term did not exist in any language until 1869. Can someone put this in the criticisms page? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 220.127.116.11 (talk) 02:06, 9 February 2011 (UTC)
- Source? Basileias (talk) 01:05, 10 February 2011 (UTC)
- You are referring to I Corinthians 6:9, which was translated "Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders..." in the NIV until at least 1997. It's true that "homosexual" is not an exact translation of "αρσενοκοιτης". But they have changed it to "Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men". This is perhaps a better translation of "αρσενοκοιται" (although one could argue that it misuses the word "sex"), but they have neglected to translate the previous term, "μαλακοι". Eric Kvaalen (talk) 08:01, 22 April 2014 (UTC)
Wikimedia, as of this edit, is publicizing their proposed amendment regarding undisclosed paid editing, how it's causing problems in wikipedia and will incur criminal charges if continues.
It's well known that one of the MOST unreliable wiki documents is on the NIV as it's plainly obvious that Zondervan has hired someone to remove anything against the NIV. A large counsel may soon target this document which would be very bad for Zondervan. I personally warn whoever is cherry picking this document to be fair and unbiased before every criticism with the NIV is made known in this search engine without there being a time available that someone isn't monitoring the document to purge it of your biased tactics.
Instead of just deleting this comment, you may want to forward it to your employers as a caring heads up. Just be fair. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 18.104.22.168 (talk) 23:48, 2 March 2014 (UTC)
The Criticism section tag was removed because there was "no discussion on talk page", which isn't correct. Looking at the sources many, and throughout the article, fail Wikipedia's WP:RS. The article as a whole needs clean up. Basileias (talk) 01:10, 10 February 2011 (UTC)
- Started some cleanup. A lot of references and links are broken or have changed. Basileias (talk) 02:03, 10 February 2011 (UTC)
- User StreamOfJustice creates an account @ 03:31 and then performs an odd edit @ 03:38. Basileias (talk)
- The criticism section uses these sources for it's criticisms.
- I fail to see how most of these support the various criticisms cited. I would like to remove most of them and rename the the "criticism" section to "reception." The is the norm is most article when dealing with how something was received; like movies, books, etc. Basileias (talk) 03:24, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
2011 vs 2010
Revised Standard Version
An edit by user BlueMesa171 stating "the Revised Standard Version "a much better literary achievement and more worthy of acceptance as the standard media Bible," doesn't make any sense to add. The reason is the article is about the New International Version, not the Revised Standard Version, it also sounds opinionated. While I don't have issues with that statement in Wikipedia, it would be more appropriate in the Revised Standard Version article. Basileias (talk) 23:04, 19 June 2011 (UTC)
Controversy over 2011 revision
A new section was recently added. The 3 sources provided are not neutral third party sources, especially cbmw.org. Some of the write up, "Most conservatives prefer a word for word translation..." isn't a sourced fact. Also the statement, "The Southern Baptist Convention...the largest evangelical denomination in the world..." seems like an advertisement for them. Trying to run through a few one sided sources to create a "2011 controversy" when it appears many "conservative groups," if you want to call them that, are largely fine with the recent NIV.
The SBC source stated this...
In an unusual move, messengers called to the floor and passed a resolution on the "gender-neutral 2011 New International Version" (NIV) that was not reported to the convention by the Resolutions Committee.
I don't know what "unusual move" is supposed to mean and the statement "was not reported to the convention by the Resolutions Committee" seems like we should wait for more information. Basileias (talk) 02:14, 28 June 2011 (UTC)
"Unusual move" means that the resolution was brought to the convention from the floor rather than reported out of the resolutions committee, as is normally done. The last time this happened was 2002. The resolution passed almost unanimously. One should not consider this resolution any less authoritative than others. user:toverton28
http://www.abpnews.com/content/view/6491/53/ http://www.christianpost.com/news/southern-baptists-reject-updated-niv-bible-51288/ http://www.onenewsnow.com/Church/Default.aspx?id=1374070 http://www.realclearreligion.org/2011/06/17/southern_baptists_air_displeasure_with_the_new_niv_241989.html — Preceding unsigned comment added by Toverton28 (talk • contribs) 03:34, 28 June 2011 (UTC)
- This seems mainly centered around what the SBC has done as most of these sources appear "Baptist," and I suspect Southern Baptist. I know the WELS Lutheran group has publicly said differently. The outstanding question would be, is it notable what the SBC has done on this. The original edit was written like a POV push with statements "controversy," "...the concept of gender-neutrality...," "Most conservatives prefer a word for word translation..." etc. Any future edits concerning this topic need to be written from a Neutral point of view.
- It appears the SBC has called the NIV "Gender-Neutral." This is rather odd because I think of "gender-neutral" as "not associated with gender." Searching the new version of the NIV for the word "man" on bible gateway produced a result of 1,989 hits. I am concerned about the sources per WP:RS. Basileias (talk) 04:04, 28 June 2011 (UTC)
After Toverton28's reinsert
- Toverton28, when someone removes and edit and takes the issue to the talk page you are supposed to reach a consensus here first before you go reinserting the original edit. Your edition is not encyclopedic and I am raising a question about even the notability of it. Basileias (talk) 04:13, 28 June 2011 (UTC)
I attempted to address your concerns in the changes there were made. This was not a simple reinsert but a new post attempting to address your concerns. Focus on the Family is not a Baptist organization, yet it is also critical of the gender neutral changes. "Most" was changed to "Some". I even linked a British article to show that this issue is notable. The Washington Times is also linked. Realclearreligion.org ran a story on the Southern Baptist resolution. Gender-neutral does not mean all reference to gender are eliminated, but that many male references in the original language are. . . such as "I will make you fish for people" instead of "I will make you fishers of men". The original Greek says "men". See http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1367570/New-Bible-translation-causes-controversy-addition-women-gender-neutral-language.html Please let me know if you have additional concerns. Thank you.
Here is the updated post that I would like to see placed on the NIV page. I believe many wiki readers would like to know this information.
Controversy over 2011 revision
In 2011 Zondervan changed the translation philosophy of the NIV to incorporate the concept of gender-neutrality. When the original language says "brothers", the 2011 NIV often translates the English into "brothers and sisters". Some conservative scholars, who believe every single word of the Bible is inspired by God, have been critical of these changes. Many conservatives prefer a word for word translation of the original language rather than a thought for thought translation, which inserts more of the translators personal theology into the English text. The Council on Biblical Manhood and Womanhood has published articles critical of the gender-neutral changes. The Southern Baptist Convention, which is the largest evangelical denomination in the United States, passed a resolution calling the 2011 NIV an "inaccurate translation". Focus on the Family has also failed to recommend the updated version of the NIV.  The criticisms effect on NIV Bible sales remains to be seen. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Toverton28 (talk • contribs) 04:43, 28 June 2011 (UTC)
- This does not address my concerns. Translation issues and debates are common and definitely not exclusive to the NIV. I also noticed you had a warning about original research on your talk page from another editor, which you have now removed. Basileias (talk) 04:57, 28 June 2011 (UTC)
- I am somewhat new to wiki, though not a total novice. Removing the original research link is not an attempt to hide something. I always remove talk after the issues have been settled. This keeps things from getting cluttered (Btw, someone else came and made similar points on the page you mention). If you check my history I have cleaned up my cluttered page many times before. Am I not suppose to do this? You are correct that translation issues and debates are common, but translations being labled as "inaccurate" are very rare. CBMW, Southern Baptists, and Focus on the Family have all been critical of the revised 2011 NIV. The SBC and Focus on the Family are major evangelical groups. CBMW is a non-Baptist group that is made up of many evangelical scholars. All their criticism combined will have a large effect on NIV sales. This is very notable in my opinion. I simply ask that wiki readers be aware of the controversy.--Toverton28 (talk) 05:28, 28 June 2011 (UTC)
- In response to your question "Am I not suppose to do this?" I do not remove mine and most editors do not, unless they are archiving old discussion.
- A translation being labeled as "inaccurate" is pretty common. Every translation in existence has been labeled inaccurate by someone. The CBMW has been rejected in quite a few articles as a neutral and reliable source. The reason is they have a vested interest in the promotion of their issues. You stated "All their criticism combined will have a large effect on NIV sales," since the NIV is still #1, that remains to be seen.
- You seem to be assuming that since there is the usual translation debate in Christian circles, that there exists a big controversy that is unique. I really do not think there is. I am not opposed to covering something, but I do not think what you have presented has risen to a notable level. I would like to see input from other editors.
Given the number of sources provided, I think that at least some mention of this issue, perhaps shorter than what is presented here, would not be unreasonable. carl bunderson (talk) (contributions) 20:39, 30 June 2011 (UTC)
- I think a mention in "Reception" is reasonable and I would be willing to work on something. However Toverton28 has been trying to generate criticism I think for the sake of just generating it and then exaggerating it. He has been caught Canvassing over issues very similar here under 'Merger proposal.' Basileias (talk) 01:03, 1 July 2011 (UTC)
Well, I for one agree with Toverton, although it's not a question of sales. Important criticism has been raised and should be covered.
And by the way, I think it's fine to remove stuff from one's talk page after a while!
- Wikimedia, as of this edit, is publicizing their proposed amendment regarding undisclosed paid editing, how it's causing problems in wikipedia and will incur criminal charges if continues.
- It's well known that one of the MOST unreliable wiki documents is on the NIV as it's plainly obvious that Zondervan has hired someone to remove anything against the NIV. A large counsel may soon target this document which would be very bad for Zondervan. I personally warn whoever is cherry picking this document to be fair and unbiased before every criticism with the NIV is made known in this search engine without there being a time available that someone isn't monitoring the document to purge it of your biased tactics.
- Instead of just deleting this comment, you may want to forward it to your employers as a caring heads up. Just be fair. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 22.214.171.124 (talk) 23:48, 2 March 2014 (UTC)
No need to put an in-depth comment on this section. Anyone with decent reading comprehension can look at the statement and see there is no legal through from the commenter, but Wikipedia did put their own legal threat on undisclosed paid editing. The threat here is to take a 24/hr watch on the document to keep it unbiased. 126.96.36.199 (talk) 19:53, 21 March 2014 (UTC)
- For further review, the following comments were left on my talk page from this i.p.
- The comment I made was very civil and you are very biased and have made Wikipedia, for many, no longer a useful tool for research. My entire congregation has now turned away from the NIV. Seeing how biased and unfairly it's "washed" on here. You have been closed to everyone who doesn't agree with you, deleting EVERYONE's thoughts and revisions as though you're smoke and mirroring the general public from an unbiased research. The few people you've reached online will never compare to the viral negative marketing you've personally sparked with regards to the NIV and Wikipedia, behold that very document is already being discussed through internet social networks and physical social networks continually. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.8.131.52 (talk) 22:51, 8 September 2013 (UTC)
- Like the person above, I also was accused falsely. I was accused of threatening you outside of Wiki, but how would I even find you? The threat wasn't outside of Wiki, but I think you know well, inside of Wiki that we would form a team to consistenly edit the NIV and make it truly unbiased and tell the truth about the NIV and I'm sure Zondervan would not like that, but you are dishonestly biased towards making the NIV seem perfect and you state on your page that you aren't even a Christian. I use your page as an example of how underhanded Zondervan is and use it to convert many people away from the NIV as an untrustworthy translation. I'm sure you're being hired by Zondervan. This article in Wiki is extremely biased and you won't let a single person put anything truthful regardless of their refrences, always coming up with a random reason to delete it. If we don't start seeing an unbiased, honest document about the truth of the NIV translation a few of us have already decided to team up and keep the NIV article honest and unbiased. It would be better if you just loosen up your grip on the article because if we have to resort to that to keep Wiki an unbiased encyclopedia that all can trust then you and whoever else Zondervan hires will loose all control of the article. You should be banned from Wiki. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 184.108.40.206 (talk) 19:42, 21 March 2014 (UTC)
Quote of Wright
The following quote of N.T. Wright was recently removed:
"When the New International Version was published in 1980, I was one of those who hailed it with delight. I believed its own claim about itself, that it was determined to translate exactly what was there, and inject no extra paraphrasing or interpretative glosses.... Disillusionment set in over the next two years, as I lectured verse by verse through several of Paul's letters, not least Galatians and Romans. Again and again, with the Greek text in front of me and the NIV beside it, I discovered that the translators had another principle, considerably higher than the stated one: to make sure that Paul should say what the broadly Protestant and evangelical tradition said he said.... [I]f a church only, or mainly, relies on the NIV it will, quite simply, never understand what Paul was talking about." 
I have put it back in a footnote, but I think it should be in the text, as it raises an important point and is not too long.
I also put in a sentence pointing out that in the NIV's version of the Lord's Prayer in Luke, they put "for we also forgive everyone who sins against us", instead of "everyone who is indebted to us". I find that a flagrant violation of the principle of translating what the author wrote, rather than putting what one would prefer he wrote.
- Quotations are often taken from primary sources such as personal diaries or interviews. The problem with such sources is that they may not be fully representative of an individual's views. It may be that they changed their views throughout their life, or held conflicting views at once.
- Editors with an axe to grind sometimes use quotes from an individual's early life, personal papers, or little-known interviews to show that they support a particular position, when the truth may be much more complicated. In such cases, it's always better to provide a summary of the individual's views, ideally sourced from a reputable biography, rather than counter-quotes intended to 'rebalance' the article.
- The main points of the NT Wright quote was not purged from the article. It does refer to the past NIV which is now discontinued. You appear to be wanting to create a criticism section or highlight criticism. These sections are discouraged WP:CRIT. I am parroting the wiki policy but it explains it well; "... these sections call undue attention to negative viewpoints. Instead, articles should present positive and negative viewpoints from reliable sources together, fairly, proportionately, and without bias." Hope that explains. Basileias (talk) 06:18, 25 April 2014 (UTC)
Yes, I would like a criticism section. Many Wikipedia articles have criticism sections, and I think they're a good idea, especially when there are strong criticisms!
I really doubt that Wright has changed his mind on this. Anyway, most people who use the NIV didn't buy it since the latest edition came out. People should know that their NIV Bibles are not giving them the straight scoop. Since this is a talk page, I can give my opinion: I am constantly finding things in the NIV that I find objectionable. Have you ever noticed for example how they almost systematically translate σαρξ as "old nature" or something similar? That is putting their own interpretation onto the words of Paul or whoever wrote the passage in question. What do YOU think about translating "everyone who is indebted to us" as "everyone who sins against us"? (Do not care)
- You are installing POV that is not aligned with wiki guidelines. Without consensus from experienced editors, I see no need for a Criticism section. You are in original research for the purpose of advancing positions beyond the sources. Article cannot be someone's personal Coatrack.
- Editors should avoid having a separate section in an article devoted to criticism, controversies, or the like because these sections call undue attention to negative viewpoints. --Wikipedia:Criticism
Protecting the NIV?
I recently had a reason to access this page and was stunned to find that such a major version of the Bible had such a weak Wikipedia entry. After spending a few hours doing research on what I expected to find on this page I decided to update it. Rather than remove questionable and weak material (which tends to offend others), my update was largely to clean up the entry by creating more logical sections, moving existing material to those sections for clearer reading, adding references to other NIV versions and revisions currently not even listed (!), adding history for all versions and adding some verifiable statistics which were all fully referenced. All the while carefully trying to avoid the many controversies found in this and just about any other version of the Bible.
In one full swoop all my hours of work were undone with the simple comment, "(Sources in question. Not independant or 3rd party and edits also covering topics written on in other articles.)"
OK. My citations were not the best as I left off the authors and access dates. That could easily have been fixed. But the sources themselves? I would like the person responsible for the undo to please explain how citations of outside sources of original work, documents and articles are not independent or 3rd party. As far as covering these topics in other articles, this is the MAIN article. Other versions of the NIV should at least referenced here, especially since the articles on Wikipedia for those other versions are also very short and weak.
After reading the history and talk sections for this entry and the many attempted edits to this page it is obvious that people are, for some strange reason, trying to keep any relevant information on the various versions of the NIV out of Wikipedia. Too bad. (And I am an avid reader of this version of the Bible!) Wikipedia readers deserve to at least know the facts. Whomever is regularly undoing edits on this page is doing everyone a great disservice. I call on the Wikipedia community at large to judge for themselves, invite anyone to review my changes and click undo on the undo! 220.127.116.11 (talk) 20:19, 16 May 2014 (UTC)
- If I had caught these edits, I would have wanted revert them too. Here is why WP:THIRDPARTY,
Every article on Wikipedia must be based upon verifiable statements from multiple third-party reliable sources with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy. A third-party source is one that is entirely independent of the subject being covered, e.g., a newspaper reporter covering a story that they are not involved in except in their capacity as a reporter. The opposite of a third-party source is a first-party or non-independent source. A third-party source is not affiliated with the event, not paid by the people who are involved, and not otherwise likely to have a conflict of interest or significant bias related to the material.
- So yes, people do protect this article and hopefully all articles. Some of the sources like bpnews or worldmag have neutrality issues. Other sources were personal websites and that can also be a no-go, especially when its criticism.
- You did do an almost article changing edit and those often can result in a revert by someone. All that said, I do not think everything you did should be tossed. I thought some of your edit did clean and create logical sections and clearer reading. If you want to propose some changes here, you might find editors are very willing to work with you. Basileias (talk) 01:36, 17 May 2014 (UTC)
- Wright, N. T. (2009). Justification : God's Plan and Paul's Vision. Downers Grove, Ill.: IVP Academic. pp. 51–52. ISBN 978-0-8308-3863-9. Retrieved July 30, 2011.