Talk:Ngô Đình Thục

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Charles Grestl[edit]

Formerly Untitled

Archbishop Thuc's arrival to the United States was predicted in a letter written to Pope John XXIII in 1961. Utica, NY. mystic Charles Grestl wrote the letter after receiving no reply from either the Vatican or Cardinal Spellman of New York City.

In 1947, Grestl had several visions of Christ carving angels out of wood and received a message to be given to the "Cardinal". The message from Christ said that "... the priests represent me on the altar and I am always waiting."

This message, couple with references "my foster father's house," "boys work," and the cities of Rochester and New York seem to indicate the arrival of Archbishop Thuc in Rochester, NY; his final trip to New York city, and the coming of a NEW Clergy to replace the clergy that have fallen away from the Catholic Faith.

We discussed these and the biblical and theological issues of Charles Grestl's letter in our book, The Man Who Saw Jesus. Thank you, Bishop L. Poccia. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.52.238.55 (talk) 14:27, 19 September, 2003 (UTC)

A book with that title, The Man Who Saw Jesus, is not found in WorldCat and a search for "The Man Who Saw Jesus" Grestl yields ONE other site besides this Wikipedia talkpage and its copies. It is most certainly not a reliable WP:SOURCE. A search for "Charles Grestl" yields unremarkable apparition and pareidolia stories — nothing notable or reliable. This topic should just be archived and forgotten. –BoBoMisiu (talk) 15:42, 8 July 2014 (UTC)

Last Catholic Bishops in Vietnam??[edit]

What does mean the sentence: Thục was the principal consecrator of Bishops Michel Nguyên Khác Ngu (1909-2009) and Antoine Nguyên Van Thien (born 1906), the last Roman Catholic bishop in Vietnam.[1]?? It is a nonsence. Probably, they were the last Bishops in V. consecrated in Tridentine Ritus but, as I hope, these pages are Wikipedia, not Tradypedia. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.176.160.206 (talk) 14:34, 9 October 2009 (UTC)

This was the result of an edit that changed the sentence from "Thục was the principal consecrator of Bishops Antoine Nguyên Van Thien (born 1906) and Michel Nguyên Khác Ngu (born 1909), who are currently the oldest still living Roman Catholic bishops in Vietnam." to "Thục was the principal consecrator of Bishops Antoine Nguyên Van Thien (1906-2009) and Michel Nguyên Khác Ngu (born 1909), the last Roman Catholic bishop in Vietnam." They were not the last Catholic bishops in Vietnam (see "Living Bishops of Vietnam" on catholic-hierarchy.org). —BoBoMisiu (talk) 16:48, 2 July 2014 (UTC)

surname[edit]

Inasfar as the archbishop's brothers' names all began with Ngô, it is reasonable to infer that Ngô was the family-name, not Thuc. Indeed, it is the tradition in the east for the surname to come first. A better rendition of his full name would be with his Christian names first, since such names customarily precede the surname.

You are right and I did edit about Vietnamese name. But did you note that his nephew, François-Xavier Cardinal Nguyên Van Thuán, are not bear the family name of Ngô. The reason is that Cardinal Thuan is the son of Thuc's sister, so Thuan bear the family name from his father, and not from family Ngô. —Dieu2005 14:28, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

communion with Rome[edit]

The Clemente Domínguez y Gómez article claims that Peter Martin Ngo-Dinh-Thuc was excommunicated for valid but unlawful ordinations, then accepted back into the church, and then excommunicated a second time. But this article makes no mention of reacceptance or a second excommunication. Which article is correct?Gwalla | Talk 22:50, 3 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Verifiability[edit]

I gave a verifiable source to the corrections I made. Whether you agree/disagree about the factual accuracy of the source is a matter of opinion – one which the individual reader should be allowed to form of their own. I have no axe to grind – if you can disprove the source, I will remove without contestation.

The reference to des Lauriers however, is not sourced. If you cannot provide a verifiable source for this, it does not belong. —Donalcone 19:01, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

To Smith2006 - the one committing vandalism here is you. You remove properly sourced material and/or substitute your opinion in its place. Please familarize yourselves with the rules of editing on this site before you continue to make bad ones. Thanks. —Donalcone 18:49, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

Role in Ngo regime[edit]

The long-term importance of Ngo Dinh Thuc to history, rather than the Church, may have its genesis in the 1926-1927 crossing of his path, in Rome, with the path of fellow-resident Francis Spellman. It was likely their long term acquaintance that swung open the door of Maryknoll for Ngo Dinh Diem in 1950 and kept it open almost three years. Either nobody knows, or nobody will tell, exactly what Diem did there all that time. Further, it is even more UN-likely that Diem stayed at Maryknoll without the express permission of Pius XII.

Regardless, what is not a matter of speculation is the legitimizing role played by Bishop Thuc in the arrogance, cupidity and cruelty of the Ngo Regime - symbolized for many by the 1963 reference of Mme. Nhu to "monk barbeques". Two interesting witnesses are Edward Lansdale - see "In the Midst of Wars" - and Thich Nhat Hanh -see "Lotus in a Sea of Fire". —Trylon 23:06, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

"Thuc's brother, Ngô Ðình Khôi, was buried alive because of his refusal to become a minister in the first communist government. Thuc's three other brothers, Ngô Đình Diệm, president of South Vietnam, Ngô Đình Nhu and Ngô Đình Can, his close collaborators, were all assassinated. President Diệm was assassinated on November 1, 1963."
The above paragraph gives the reader the impression that Ngô Đình Diệm, Ngô Đình Nhu and Ngô Đình Can were killed by the communists. These three Ngô brothers were killed during or as result of a coup by their own military forces. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Quietaustralian (talkcontribs) 13:50, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Concecration Rite?[edit]

Did Thuc use the pre-concilar or the post-concilar rubrics when he concecrated the bishops? Becuase it appears that Thuc had no religious objections to the Novus Ordo, he only chose sedevacantism because of the crisis within the Church. If he did used the post-conciliar rubrics, then the whole Thuc line could be in-vaild (by a Traditionalist perspective). —75.3.73.19 22:19, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

Claims of "Mgr. Barthe"[edit]

These claims may not be posted inside the article in large CAPS constantly, as there is no source provided, and the opinion of Barthe is contrary to that of the official Vatican position. Also, there is no reason to believe that a man who could write Latin and preach sermons all over the world, was unable to confer a sacrament validly due to ALLEGED "mental illness". If Archbishop Thuc could validly celebrate Mass, and he could and observed the rites totally, he could also validly ordain and consecrate, as nothing more special is required. Those claiming otherwise, do not understand Roman Catholic sacramentology and theology. They seem to deny the validity of the Episcopal Consecrations by Mons. Thuc, just because they deem them to be imprudent, undesirable, illicit or criminal. That may be true all, but invalidity is something else that licitity or illicitity. Thuc clearly made imprudent decisions, e.g. at Palmar de Troya, but archbishop Thuc was not insane and unable to say Mass validly. Imprudent popes and bishops conferred sacraments validly. Licitity is something else than validity. —Smith2006 (talk) 09:43, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

Article name[edit]

A search of Google Books and Scholar seem to show that Pierre Martin Ngo Dinh Thuc is more common than Pierre Martin Ngô Đình Thục (BOOKS 23 on -Pierre-Martin-Ngô-Đình-Thục Pierre-Martin-Ngo-Dinh-Thuc Pierre-Martin-Ngô-Đình-Thục -Pierre-Martin-Ngo-Dinh-Thuc - did not match any documents. SCHOLAR 147 for -Pierre-Martin-Ngô-Đình-Thục Pierre-Martin-Ngo-Dinh-Thuc, 79 for Pierre-Martin-Ngô-Đình-Thục -Pierre-Martin-Ngo-Dinh-Thuc). On that evidence unless someone can show that it is faulty the article Pierre Martin Ngô Đình Thục should be moved to Pierre Martin Ngo Dinh Thuc following the WP:NC policy and the WP:UE guideline. —Philip Baird Shearer (talk) 09:25, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

"Ngo Dinh Thuc" gets 2,030 results on Google Books. "Pierre Martin Ngo Dinh Thuc" gets 281. Vietnamese Catholics all have Christian names, but it is quite unusual to see the Christian and Vietnamese names stuck together like this. —Kauffner (talk) 12:39, 21 July 2011 (UTC)

Ngo Dinh Khoi[edit]

The following discussion is marked as answered (Ngô Đình Khôi was the eldest Ngô brother). If you have a new comment, place it just below the box.

Neil Sheehan, in Bright Shining Lie, says that N.D. Khoi was Pres. Diem's oldest brother and that he was killed by the Viet Minh sometime in late 1945, early 1946. Is Sheehan mistaken, or why does N.D. Khoi redirect here, to a different brother?? —Terry J. Carter (talk) 04:34, 20 June 2012 (UTC)

Ngo Dinh Khoi was the eldest Ngo brother. Sheehan's info is correct. As no article exists for Khoi someone redirected his name to Thuc. I re-redirected it to his father (Ngo Dinh Kha)'s article as the most appropriate holding place until and unless an article on Khoi is created. Thanks for observing. —Quis separabit? 13:54, 20 June 2012 (UTC)


Lefebvre consacration by Thuc[edit]

Moved: was at talk:Episcopi vagantes

Savez-vous que Mgr Lefebvre a été consacré en 1976 par Mgr Thuc, j'en ai les preuves (lettres de Mgr Lefebvre à Mgr Thuc).
–P. Gérard.
— Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.12.20.40 (talk) 21:51, 27 August 2005 (UTC)

Google translation of above contribution by 80.12.20.40: "Did you know that Archbishop Lefebvre was consecrated in 1976 by Bishop Thuc, I have proof" (letters of Lefebvre to Thuc). –Preceding translation added by BoBoMisiu (talk) 18:01, 20 June 2014 (UTC)
Lefebvre was consecrated bishop in 1947, according to his article. He founded the SSPX in 1970. How could he have been consecrated by Thuc in 1976? Scolaire (talk) 09:41, 21 June 2014 (UTC)
I agree. In my opinion, it's a dubious statement. —BoBoMisiu (talk) 16:45, 2 July 2014 (UTC)

French language posts[edit]

The above French language discussion, in this section, was WP:REFACTORed from a fragmented discussion on this talk page. It is about purported consecrations of Jean-Gérard Roux and Luigi Boni, on 18 April 1982, in Loano, Italy, by Thục. The posts read like rambling Internet forum posts. A search for "Jean Gérard Roux" Thuc, Roux Thuc and "Luigi Boni" Thuc yields several interesting results including Roux's 2005 incarceration for forgery and fraud.[1]. Articles by Anthony Chadwick, on two personal websites, describe the case and conclude that there is no reliable evidence that these consecrations attributed to Thục actually took place.[2][3] As both are personal websites, they do not meet WP:BLPSPS guidelines. These claims should be debunked in a footnote in the article, or maybe in the episcopi vagantes article, using WP:RELIABLE sources (most likely French language sources). Previously, content about Roux was added in 2006 and repeatedly removed.

References
  1. ^ Blond, Georges (2005-03-10). "Je suis victime d'une guerre de religion". leparisien.fr (in French). Paris: Le Parisien. Archived from the original on 2014-07-01. Retrieved 2014-07-01. 
  2. ^ Chadwick, Anthony (2013-03-13). "Vagante bishops and aping Rome". sarumuse.wordpress.com. Archived from the original on 2013-06-27. Retrieved 2014-07-02. 
  3. ^ Chadwick, Anthony. "Notes on Jean-Gérard Roux". tboyle.net. Washington, DC: Terrence J. Boyle. Archived from the original on 2012-07-19. Retrieved 2014-07-02. 

BoBoMisiu (talk) 20:56, 2 July 2014 (UTC), modified 22:39, 5 July 2014 (UTC)

From what I can see it is not a discussion as such, but a single user, taking a variety of names including Fr. Aereld, Jean Gerard Roux and Louise Littieri, disputing the section on Roux in the version that you linked to above. There was a lot of edit-warring on that section at that time, with a dynamic IP being repeatedly reverted after adding similar diatribes into the article. Scolaire (talk) 21:29, 6 July 2014 (UTC)