Talk:Night and Fog (1956 film)

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This article was automatically assessed because at least one article was rated and this bot brought all the other ratings up to at least that level. BetacommandBot 07:36, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Night and Fog DVD cover.jpg

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BetacommandBot (talk) 23:55, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

The phrase "Nacht und Nebel"

"bei Nacht und Nebel dahon gehen"

1. I have changed the text "bei Nacht und Nebel dahon gehen" to

   "bei Nacht und Nebel davon gehen"

   bcz neither i (with my 4 years of high school German) nor an informant (who lived 5 years in German-speaking countries) recognizes "dahon" as a word, and it is probably a transcription error. Dahin means "to it", "to that" or "to there" depending on context, and davon similarly means "of or from it", "of or from that" or "of or from there". The translation given would result from the change (preserving the word order, and recall that all German nouns are upcased, not just proper names):

   In the presence of night and fog from there to go

   I found on the Web three hits on the "dahon" version, all embedded in the language of our article. And "Dahon" has five hits in :de: WP, all up-cased (i.e., nouns, not adverbs) and apparently the names of companies or people. One hit on "dahon" was lower-cased, but appears in an archive of a user talk page, suggesting the author never noticed, or felt no need to correct, what i take to be a slip of the pen, and readers would not edit a signed contrib whose meaning was still obvious.

2. In any case, a citation is needed, and i've added the tag.

--Jerzy•t 02:51, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

Niemand gleich!

Alberich's full speech is

"Nacht und Nebel -

Niemand gleich!"

Siehst du mich Bruder?

and a standard singing translation into English (one putting number of syllables, and sometimes cadence, ahead of precision of meaning) reads (below the stage directions "very softly")

"Night and darkness -

Nowhere seen!"

Seest thou me, brother?

A line's worth of silence from the singer intervenes between the second and third lines; the stage directions for the silence say "His form vanishes; in its place a column of mist is seen." (All from p. 118, 4th system, in Das Rheingold, G. Schirmer Opera Score Editions, no date and no copyright asserted.)

I presume it is obvious that the 5 words between the quote marks are the whispered verbal component of the invisibility spell of the Tarnhelm. (The third line is the beginning of an exchange with Mime (say MEE-meh) that accompanies his abusive demonstration of his ability to attack unseen.)

The word niemand means "no one", "nobody", and gleich means, (usually) "equal" but sometimes "immediately". (The second is absent in many de/en dicts, but i pursued my instinct via the examples within Der Großer Duden: Stilwörterbuch, Biblographisches Institut, Mannheim, 1963, p. 261, entry for "gleich", 2)b).)

Thus plausible literal translations are something along the lines of

(per "equal")

"Exactly no one [left where i was]!"

"No one [can] equal [this feat]!"

(per "immediately")

"Without delay [there's seemingly] no one!"

I'm at a loss where to look for a well informed contextual (rather than either literal or singing) translation, but i think either "Nowhere seen!" or "no longer anyone" would require a reference of that sort, to use it in this article. (And the latter especially, in light of the hints that it is a translation to English via French, and if so the likelihood that the French was another singing translation.) So i've removed the English version of the second line. (In light of our policies, i avoid any discussion of whether we bear any responsibility for what happens to any of our readers who come into possession of a Tarnhelm, and try to operate it using a defective incantation. [wink])
--Jerzy•t 07:54, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

Origin of the term "Nacht und Nebel"

Quote: There is some irony in the term, as "bei Nacht und Nebel davon gehen" is a colloquial German expression<!--{{Fact}} begin-->{{fix |link=Wikipedia:Citation needed |text=citation needed |class=noprint Template-Fact |title=This claim needs references to reliable sources |date=August 2008 |cat=[[Category:All articles with unsourced statements]] |cat-date=Category:Articles with unsourced statements}}<!--{{Fact}} end--> roughly meaning "escape under cover of darkness". [[Hitler]] most likely borrowed it from [[Wagner]]'s [[Das Rheingold]] (1869),<!--{{Fact}} begin-->{{fix |link=Wikipedia:Citation needed |text=citation needed |class=noprint Template-Fact |title=This claim needs references to reliable sources |date=August 2008 |cat=[[Category:All articles with unsourced statements]] |cat-date=Category:Articles with unsourced statements}}<!--{{Fact}} end--> an opera that he revered and in which [[Alberich|a character]] becomes invisible using a [[Tarnhelm|magic helmet]] and uttering the [[magic word|spell]] "Nacht und Nebel, niemand gleich". I have removed this segment for several reasons:

1. Nacht und Nebel unsurprisingly is a German locution for "surreptitiously". I'd say it is currently most popular in the phrase "Nacht-und-Nebel-Aktion", i. e. some sort of surreptitious activity. "Bei Nacht und Nebel davongehen" is not, however, an established figure of speech.
2. the claim about the locution's Wagnerian origins need to be sourced (who is to say that it originated with Wagner?)
3. the segement doesn't belong here but to the article Nacht und Nebel

Thanks, Maikel (talk) 18:36, 17 August 2008 (UTC) Strike-thru (see below) & reformat by Jerzy•t 23:35, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

• The ponderously incomprehensible nowiki'd markup, which i've struck thru above, includes subst'd {{fact}} tags whose expansion here does nothing but obstruct. Except for my replacing the citatation-needed maint tags within the sentence with non-functional indications of their respective locations, the following indicates exactly what M removed, both as to appearance and (if you care to view this talk-page contribs markup) the markup that produced it:

  There is some irony in the term, as "bei Nacht und Nebel davon gehen" is a colloquial German expression{{Fact}} roughly meaning "escape under cover of darkness". Hitler most likely borrowed it from Wagner's Das Rheingold (1869),{{Fact}} an opera that he revered and in which a character becomes invisible using a magic helmet and uttering the spell "Nacht und Nebel, niemand gleich".

--Jerzy•t 23:35, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

• As to those 3 arguments:
  1. In the absence of contrary evidence, i think M's point point on the 1st clause i fact-tagged persuasively confirms my skepticism, and i see no problem in removing the clause w/o prejudice.
  2. It is plausible to me that the film Night and Fog (film), or interviews with production-team members, assert the 2nd tagged clause, and that could make it relevant to the film's article even if the clause is mistaken in asserting such a connection between the opera and the accepted term. Pending But pending evidence of either a fact or a myth to that effect, i think removal to talk pages is in order, especially since on its face the clause seems to claim relevance to Nach und Nebel Nacht und Nebel.
  3. I think the disposition to articles depends on whether there is evidence for historians believing Rheingold was the Wehrmacht's source, or for filmmakers having believed or speculated so, and the so far missing evidence is required before judging the article or acting on it.

I think the next step, in light of the likely consensus for the "even if relevant in WP, not in this article" argument, is copying at least parts of this discussion to, or summarizing of it on, the N&N talk. Nacht und Nebel talk page. I will undertake that, even if not today.
--Jerzy•t 23:35, 18 & 00:22 & 00:39, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

Has this page been modified by holocaust deniers?

I don't understand why the following "citation needed" tag has been added to the article, as the film very clearly shows footage of prisoners and dead victims in the camps:

"The film also deals briefly with the prisoners' conditions, and shows disturbing footage of prisoners and dead victims in the camps. [citation needed]"

If the issue is with the qualifier "disturbing" in an encyclopedic context, then it should be raised differently.

Also, regarding the following sentence, the film actually states that the Nazis "tried" to make soap from the fats of the corpses, not that they did make soap. The impression one gets when watching the film is that the Nazis experimented in many ways with what they could get from the corpses, and that they attempted to make soap from the fats but failed for whatever reason. They also wove material from the women's hair, used the skins of the victims as paper to draw on, and used the bones for various purposes (like boiling to make glue), so the "soap" example doesn't stand as any kind of anomaly. Does any evidence exist, as suggested by the article, that the "soap" matter is a false claim, or have holocaust deniers been modifying this page?

"While Night and Fog states that the Nazis made soap from the corpses, this claim is today seen as false. [citation needed]"

87.84.248.99 (talk) 11:15, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

Has it been determined yet if the Nazis did in fact make soap from the corpses? Did they try to make soap from the corpses and not succeed? To the extent that victims were either buried in pits or cremated it would seem that most of these experiments in exploiting the victims for more than their hair and the gold in their teeth were not widespread. Perhaps one of you who knows more about this than I do will provide the answers. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.22.47.232 (talk) 09:46, 10 March 2010 (UTC)

The Soap Myth

The film states that the bodies of the murdered were used to produce soap, in a way that makes the viewer think the Nazis did this with the same routine as when processing the hair. While there may well have been individual cases, this has been dispelled as a (very widespread and early) myth which has even been used by Holocaust deniers in their pathetic attempts to discredit history; see the Wikipedia article Soap made from human corpses, for instance. I believe this should be noted in the article. -- 91.11.185.177 (talk) 21:44, 22 May 2010 (UTC)

the death toll

IS it true that this movie claims that 9,000,000 people died in Auschwitz? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.98.205.205 (talk) 14:40, 27 November 2011 (UTC)

I believe that the script says that 11 million died - 6 million Jews, 5 million others - a figure which I believe is derived from the Nazi's record keeping. I don't believe this figure is generally accepted. -- kosboot (talk) 15:36, 27 November 2011 (UTC)

Reception in Israel

The article says that Night & Fog wasn't well received in Israel because of "Resnais's universalist approach" in the movie. Could this be made clearer? It seems like a statement that would only be understood if one had seen the film. If there were other reasons why there was such a dispute about the film, they should be mentioned. 63.143.213.245 (talk) 22:00, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

The statement is sourced and I think it's pretty clear: universalist is the surprise, since one would expect a film like this to focus in particular on Jewish victims. -- kosboot (talk) 22:40, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

Changing the word "collaborate"

Given the focus of this article, I'd like to change the phrase "who had been a concentration camp prisoner would collaborate on the project" to something like "would work with". Reason: "collaborate" in a discussion of Nazi Germany is a bit discomforting. I'll wait a month or so in case anyone objects. Thanks. wiki-ny-2007 (talk) 01:15, 5 June 2014 (UTC)

Needs Poster

This article is missing the film's theatrical release poster which should be added to the article.--Paleface Jack (talk) 18:54, 30 March 2015 (UTC)

I've never seen a theatrical release poster for this film. Is it to be found on the net? - kosboot (talk) 19:23, 30 March 2015 (UTC)

In many cases I've seen articles where the cover of the DVD release is the image for the infobox. - kosboot (talk) 13:46, 19 July 2015 (UTC)

External links modified

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Michael Haneke’s Comments

The section under Cultural Influences that describes Michael Haneke’s criticism of films like Schindler’s List is incorrect. The words “subjective” and “objective” seem to be flipped from what they should be.

Also, in the interview, he doesn’t really say anything about objectivity, but rather he’s commenting on fictional films using manipulative dramatic tactics, which cheapens the impact of real historical events. Just a discrepancy I noticed. 2600:4040:78D1:1500:9CC3:7E4F:7E6E:CA34 (talk) 13:45, 17 April 2023 (UTC)