Talk:Nine Years' War

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to: navigation, search
          This article is of interest to the following WikiProjects:
WikiProject Netherlands (Rated B-class)
WikiProject icon This article falls within the scope of WikiProject Netherlands, an attempt to create, expand, and improve articles related to the Netherlands on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, visit the project page where you can join the project or contribute to the discussion.
B-Class article B  This article has been rated as B-Class on the project's quality scale.
 
WikiProject France (Rated B-class, Top-importance)
WikiProject icon This article is within the scope of WikiProject France, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of France on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.
B-Class article B  This article has been rated as B-Class on the project's quality scale.
 Top  This article has been rated as Top-importance on the project's importance scale.
 
WikiProject Italy (Rated B-class, High-importance)
WikiProject icon This article is within the scope of WikiProject Italy, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of articles on Italy on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.
B-Class article B  This article has been rated as B-Class on the project's quality scale.
 High  This article has been rated as High-importance on the project's importance scale.
 
WikiProject Sweden (Rated B-class, Mid-importance)
WikiProject icon This article is within the scope of WikiProject Sweden, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Sweden-related articles on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.
B-Class article B  This article has been rated as B-Class on the project's quality scale.
 Mid  This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale.
 
WikiProject Spain (Rated B-class, High-importance)
WikiProject icon This article is within the scope of WikiProject Spain, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Spain on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.
B-Class article B  This article has been rated as B-Class on the project's quality scale.
 High  This article has been rated as High-importance on the project's importance scale.
 
WikiProject Portugal (Rated B-class, Low-importance)
WikiProject icon This article is within the scope of WikiProject Portugal, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Portugal on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.
B-Class article B  This article has been rated as B-Class on the project's quality scale.
 Low  This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.
 
WikiProject Military history (Rated B-Class)
MILHIST This article is within the scope of the Military history WikiProject. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the project and see a list of open tasks. To use this banner, please see the full instructions.
B This article has been rated as B-Class on the quality assessment scale.
WikiProject Ireland (Rated B-class, High-importance)
WikiProject icon This article is within the scope of WikiProject Ireland, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Ireland on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.
B-Class article B  This article has been rated as B-Class on the project's quality scale.
 High  This article has been rated as High-importance on the project's importance scale.
 
WikiProject Germany (Rated C-class, High-importance)
WikiProject icon This article is within the scope of WikiProject Germany, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Germany on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.
C-Class article C  This article has been rated as C-Class on the project's quality scale.
Checklist icon
 High  This article has been rated as High-importance on the project's importance scale.
 
WikiProject England (Rated B-class, Top-importance)
WikiProject icon This article is within the scope of WikiProject England, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of England on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.
B-Class article B  This article has been rated as B-Class on the project's quality scale.
 Top  This article has been rated as Top-importance on the project's importance scale.
 
WikiProject Former countries / Holy Roman Empire / Prussia  (Rated C-class)
WikiProject icon This article is within the scope of WikiProject Former countries, a collaborative effort to improve Wikipedia's coverage of defunct states and territories (and their subdivisions). If you would like to participate, please join the project.
C-Class article C  This article has been rated as C-Class on the project's quality scale.
Checklist icon
Taskforce icon
This article is supported by Holy Roman Empire task force.
Taskforce icon
This article is supported by WikiProject Prussia.
 

Archive: June 2005 – September 2006
Archive: September 2006 - February 2008
Archive: February 2008 - January 2010

First comment[edit]

Should Scotland be included among the list of belligerents? PatGallacher (talk) 17:32, 11 March 2010 (UTC)

Puducherry?[edit]

The reference to Pondicherry was changed to Puducherry with the edit summary :
"Wikipedia uses Puducherry not "Pondicherry" (which is the name of the city, not the territory)"
Whether this is actually the case is a moot point (as is whether it should) but as far as the article here goes, the French colonial territory referred to was called Pondicherry, and that is what all reliable sources here will say. So changing to the modern Indian name here is confusing at best, and misleading at worst.
In any event the piped link here leads to Pudicherry page, which has an explanation that Pondicherry was the name until 2006, so I cannot see the point of changing the text here. Xyl 54 (talk) 22:45, 1 August 2010 (UTC)

Election of the Archibishop of Cologne[edit]

Another testing point concerned the pro-French Archbishop-Elector, Maximilian Henry, and the question of his succession in the state of Cologne... When the Elector died on 3 June 1688 Louis XIV pressed for the pro-French Bishop of Strasbourg, William Egon of Fürstenberg, to succeed him. The Emperor, however, favoured Joseph Clement, the brother of Maximilian Emanuel, Elector of Bavaria. With neither candidate able to secure the necessary two-thirds of the vote the matter was referred to Rome.

Whose vote? What was the procedure for electing the Archibishop?

Top.Squark (talk) 15:10, 9 September 2010 (UTC)

The canons of the cathedral voted, I believe. john k (talk) 16:28, 9 September 2010 (UTC)
I added this clarification to the article Top.Squark (talk) 17:47, 9 September 2010 (UTC)
Btw, was this the normal procedure for appointing Catholic bishops? Or, was it specific to the Archibishop of Cologne? Is it still the way they do it today? Top.Squark (talk) 06:41, 10 September 2010 (UTC)
This was how it was generally done in the prince-bishoprics of the Holy Roman Empire. In France, I believe, the king appointed bishops. I don't think either of those situations is what happens now. john k (talk) 15:10, 10 September 2010 (UTC)

Contradiction with Peace of Westphalia: Independence of Savoy[edit]

According to this article

The Allies had offered Victor Amadeus handsome terms to join the Grand Alliance, including the recognition of Savoy as a sovereign state and the return of Casale to Mantua and of Pinerolo to himself

However, according to Peace of Westphalia

The independence of the Netherlands, Switzerland, Savoy, Milan, Genoa, Mantua, Tuscany, Lucca, Modena and Parma from the Empire was formally recognized

Thus Savoy was already officially independent since the Peace of Westphalia.

Incidentally, it's also unclear what was the interest of Victor Amadeus in returning Casale to Mantua

Top.Squark (talk) 17:52, 9 September 2010 (UTC)

Peace of Westphalia is wrong; Savoy remained part of the Upper Rhenish Circle of the Empire after 1648. More broadly, I think it's absolutely wrong to say that the independence of Milan, Genoa, Mantua, Tuscany, Lucca, Modena and Parma from the Empire was formally recognized. They continued to be de facto independent of the empire after Westphalia, just as they had before, but nothing in the treaty changed their status. The imperial overlordship continued to be intermittently applied - the emperor seized Mantua as an imperial fief upon the extinction of the ruling line in 1708, and the treaties resolving the Modenese succession later in the century were signed by the emperor qua emperor, and approved by the Reichstag. See heraldica for the Modenese succession. Velde has other useful material which bears on this. The Treaty of the Quadruple Alliance (1718), for instance, calls Parma and Tuscany "undoubted male fiefs of the Holy Roman Empire." Northern Italy's relationship to the Holy Roman Empire was not changed by the Peace of Westphalia. As for Casale, my understanding is that Victor Amadeus had a reversionary interest in Casale - he would inherit it upon the extinction of the then reigning duke, who was childless. According to the article on the last john k (talk) 18:59, 9 September 2010 (UTC)
Thx for setting this issue straight! I added the clarification regarding Casale to the article. Top.Squark (talk) 21:18, 9 September 2010 (UTC)

Apparent contradiction with Augustus II the Strong: Reason he was elected rather than Francois Louis[edit]

According to this article

Emperor Leopold I... initially resisted the treaty, but... also sought terms and signed... However, the Emperor had netted an enormous accretion of power: ... the Emperor's candidate for the Polish throne, August of Saxony, had carried the day over Louis XIV's candidate, the Prince of Conti.

Thus, this article implies the victory of Augustus in the Polish elections was the result of the Nine Years' War, possibly an item in the treaty of the Empire with France. However, according to the other article

It is sometimes incorrectly stated that Augustus "defeated" the other leading candidates, Jakub Ludwik Sobieski, son of the previous king, and the French candidate, François Louis, Prince of Conti. Augustus actually received fewer votes than Conti (despite a massive bribery campaign), but he rushed to Poland and had himself crowned before the French candidate could set foot in the Commonwealth.

The later text creates the impression Augustus won only because he "got there first". The war isn't mentioned at all.

Top.Squark (talk) 21:25, 9 September 2010 (UTC)

I'm wary of the Augustus II article, which sounds rather partisan. It is astonishing what strong POVs make their appearance in articles about obscure questions of early modern history. I don't think the Polish election had anything directly to do with the Treaty of Ryswick - for one thing, Augustus became king of Poland five days before the treaty of Ryswick was signed. This could probably stand to be looked into more closely, though. john k (talk) 21:41, 9 September 2010 (UTC)
This article seems to present an accurate picture of events, and I don't think it implies anything about Augustus's election being related to the war. Instead of dropping that ugly template on this lovely article, why not just clean up the POV in Augustus II? Coemgenus 10:41, 10 September 2010 (UTC)
I think it does imply. Augustus' victory is listed among the gains of the Empire during the war. It might be the error is in other article but I cannot know it. Top.Squark (talk) 18:03, 11 September 2010 (UTC)
So fix it. Coemgenus 15:37, 12 September 2010 (UTC)
I would gladly fix it if I knew how. Who is right? Was Augustus' victory in Poland a result of the Nine Years War in some way? John K thinks it should be looked into more closely, and I agree. Top.Squark (talk) 17:45, 12 September 2010 (UTC)

Contradiction with Victor Amadeus II of Sardinia: status of Vaudois inside Savoy[edit]

According to this article

From their fort at Pinerolo the French were able to exert considerable pressure on the Duke of Savoy and force him to persecute his own Protestant community, the Vaudois... Amongst other concessions Louis XIV also promised not to interfere in Savoy's religious policy regarding the Vaudois...

Thus, the Duke desired to grant religious freedom to the Vaudois and it were the French who forced him to do otherwise (initially).

However, according to the other article

Victor Amadeus II began a large scale persecution of the Vaudois (Piedmontese and Savoyard Protestants) in 1685. Due to his alliances with England and the Dutch Republic during the Nine Years War, he was forced to cease this practice from 1688, and in 1694 granted an Edict of Toleration.

Here the picture is reversed: the Duke persecuted the Vaudois out of his own will, and it were the Allies who forced him to stop the persecution.

Top.Squark (talk) 09:33, 10 September 2010 (UTC)

This is also not a contradiction. Both articles say that Victor Amadeus initially persecuted the Vaudois, then stopped when he joined the Grand Alliance. This article just discusses the reasons for the prosecution in more detail. Why not just add that detail to Victor Amadeus's article instead of all this templating. This article is quite good, and these templates make it appear that it's as flawed as those two biographical articles you've contrasted it with. Coemgenus 10:45, 10 September 2010 (UTC)
The problem is that the two articles state very different reasons. One article depicts the Duke as "tolerant", and the persecutions being due to French coercion against his will. The other article claims the Duke was "intolerant", and that the end of the persecution was imposed on him by the William III of England. This is not a difference in level of detail, this a difference in essence. Regarding the templates, the aim is not making the article "look flawed". Since the articles are contradictory, there is a problem in at least one of them, and the templates draw the attention of editors towards the problems. The templates here have already done a lot of good by leading to correction of the Peace of Westphalia article and clarifications within this article. Top.Squark (talk) 11:22, 10 September 2010 (UTC)
If you wish an article corrected, then find a reliable source and fix it. It is not for you to leave assignments for other editors. Why not contribute with well-sourced additions to the text, rather than this template-grafitti that purports to command other editors to fix problems? This article didn't get written because someone dropped a template and moved on; it got written because editors (mostly User:Rebel Redcoat, I believe) saw a bad article and put in the hours of work to make it a good one. Coemgenus 13:16, 10 September 2010 (UTC)
Templates are part of official Wikipedia policy, and I'm using them exactly as they were intended. Top.Squark (talk) 18:14, 11 September 2010 (UTC)
I don't see that this is much of a contradiction. Under pressure from Louis XIV, Victor Amadeus started a persecution of the Vaudois; then under pressure from the allies, he stopped persecuting the Vaudois; then in the treaty Louis XIV agreed not to pressure Victor Amadeus to persecute the Vaudois any more. I don't think one needs to view Victor Amadeus as either tolerant or intolerant in this. In all cases his religious policy is due to external pressures. john k (talk) 15:08, 10 September 2010 (UTC)
Possibly, but Victor Amadeus might have had an agenda of his own as well. Anyway, if the situation is symmetric than both articles must present both sides. Otherwise the result is not only omission of information but also introduction of POV. Top.Squark (talk) 18:13, 11 September 2010 (UTC)
Well, then, you should look up sources on the subject, see what they say, and correct the articles accordingly. john k (talk) 04:46, 12 September 2010 (UTC)
Unfortunately, I don't have access to any such sources. Top.Squark (talk) 17:47, 12 September 2010 (UTC)
Well, then, there's not much to be done, at the moment. I'm not familiar with the details here and don't have time to look into it right now. Remind me about this in a month or so, and maybe I'll get a chance to do it. john k (talk) 03:13, 13 September 2010 (UTC)

Contradiction with Charles Emmanuel III of Sardinia: sovereignty of Savoy revisited[edit]

According to this article

The Allies had offered Victor Amadeus handsome terms to join the Grand Alliance, including the recognition of Savoy as a sovereign state...

Thus Savoy became sovereign during the Nine Years' War.

However, according to the other article

As a result of his aid in the War of the Spanish Succession, Victor Amadeus II was made King of Sicily in 1713 under the Treaty of Utrecht which ended the war. Victor Amadeus was forced to exchange Sicily for the less important kingdom of Sardinia in 1720 after objections from an alliance of four nations, including several of his former allies. Yet he retained his new title of King. The rule was that there were no kings within the Empire, but if a ruler subject to the Emperor also possessed a large territory outside the Empire he might claim this title as the Elector of Brandenburg had done, styling himself King in Prussia based on his sovereignty over the Duchy of Prussia.

This suggests Victor Amadeus was still subject to the Emperor after the War of Spanish Succession.

Top.Squark (talk) 11:29, 10 September 2010 (UTC)

This might be a case where small details could mean that both articles are correct. As far as I know, the statement in Charles Emmanuel III of Sardinia is correct, and Savoy technically remained part of the Holy Roman Empire until the end (or 1792/1796, at any rate). But there might have been some other type of "recognition of Savoy as a sovereign state" involved, I don't really know. Looking for a specific source would probably be the best option here. john k (talk) 15:03, 10 September 2010 (UTC)
Being "subject to the emperor" was kind of a hazy standard, anyway. If a nation was strong enough to defy him, his technical status didn't matter much. Princes defied the Emperor left and right after the Reformation got started. Coemgenus 16:45, 10 September 2010 (UTC)
Well, yes and no. The Emperor and the Reichstag obviously had very limited power, especially over the more powerful secular princes, but what power they did have was real, and had real consequences. The old idea of the Holy Roman Empire as completely irrelevant after 1648 has been pretty much abandoned by more recent historians; there's a lot of interesting work about the old Reich and how it worked. john k (talk) 17:39, 10 September 2010 (UTC)