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Just created this stub as she seems notable enough for her recordings for HMV. The source claims that Peter Pan (Noël Coward song) was Coward's first lyric for the London stage. Is that notable enough for the article? In ictu oculi (talk) 02:38, 29 November 2013 (UTC)
I doubt it. Do you see any sources that discuss its notability? Also, why do you think "Forbidden Fruit" is notable? -- Ssilvers (talk) 04:46, 29 November 2013 (UTC)
Since Coward wrote over 300 songs, all of which I assume have coverage as significant as these 2 that's a reasonable question. On a technical basis almost anything Coward wrote would pass WP:NSONG better than most modern pop songs, but that still wouldn't make all 300 songs notable for the biography article. I would expect with any songwriter that (a) earliest song to be performed/recorded, (b) first song to performed/recorded, may be relevant to the songwriter's development as an artist or career. That appears to be the context where the two songs occur together in multiple sources both on musical theatre and on Coward himself. Of the 2 it is the second "Forbidden Fruit" which appears to be mentioned more frequently in "potted bios" of Coward. If there is a space constraint in the article, which with 300 songs there would be, it would be the one he regarded as his own first song and which he performed in the audition for Cortot (both in real life then as acted by his grandson Massey in the 1968 film).
Looking at "his first song" and "his earliest song" across articles, it seems some songwriters' bios mention them, some don't. If no one wants to mention his earliest song in the article I'm certainly not going to force it. Cheers. In ictu oculi (talk) 10:38, 3 December 2013 (UTC)
You did a good job with "Forbidden Fruit", and I argued for Keeping it at the AfD. As for "Peter Pan", my question is, do the sources discuss the song in a way that supports a claim of notability, as they do for "Forbidden Fruit"? -- Ssilvers (talk) 18:05, 3 December 2013 (UTC)
Not as far as I can see, which is why I have redirected it to Bessie Jones which contains the content. Relative to her, it's in support of her notability, but relative to Coward is it as significant as his first song, no. In ictu oculi (talk) 20:05, 3 December 2013 (UTC)
I too gladly weighed in to support "Forbidden Fruit" at AfD, but as to the present point I don't believe the link to Ms Jones is right. It's a matter of what is likely to be helpful to our readers. Someone clicking on a link to Peter Pan (Noël Coward song) would not expect to be taken to an article on a singer, particularly one not really associated with Coward. I think we need to lose the link completely. On the whole I'd say the song, being NC's first West End lyric, might qualify as notable (though it may be significant that he didn't include the song, or even mention it, in his 1960s collected lyrics volume) but the link would need to be to the putative article on the song, not the singer, I think. Tim riley (talk) 20:47, 3 December 2013 (UTC)
No, there should not be redirect pages for the songs in a show that redirect to that show. If a song does not have an article, there should not be a redirect. -- Ssilvers (talk) 05:09, 4 December 2013 (UTC)
I didn't realize this. Does this mean the dozens of redirects to albums at Category:Paul McCartney songs should be deleted, or does WikiProject Musical theatre have a different rule than WikiProject Songs? In ictu oculi (talk) 05:16, 4 December 2013 (UTC)
Yes, I think they should be deleted, but it may not be worth the trouble to do so. -- Ssilvers (talk) 05:22, 4 December 2013 (UTC)
[left]I think you are missing the point. Creating these redirects misleads the reader into thinking that clicking on the link will bring them to some useful information about the song, when what you are doing brings them to a mere mention of the song that does not add to their understanding and merely pulls them away from the article that they wanted to read in the first place. See WP:OVERLINK and WP:REDLINK for related discussions. Even if creating the redirect is not *technically* incorrect, it is not helpful to the encyclopedia. That's all I have to say about this, so if you want to discuss it further, go to the WP:Redirect talk page or someplace else to discuss it with someone who may find the discussion interesting. -- Ssilvers (talk) 15:26, 4 December 2013 (UTC)
"That's all I have to say about this" is fine. But I doubt most editors would agree that Peter Pan (Noël Coward song) "pulls the reader away from which the article that they wanted to read in the first place" -- because Peter Pan (Noël Coward song) has no other meaning than the song so is not pulling the reader away from anything. In ictu oculi (talk) 03:19, 5 December 2013 (UTC)
I concur with Ssilvers. Years ago, a more experienced editor pulled me up for an inappropriate link, and gave me the wise counsel for linking: "No Surprises". Clicking on a link that purports to point to a song but in fact points to a biography of someone who once sang it would, I think, be an unhelpful and unwelcome surprise. Tim riley (talk) 10:26, 5 December 2013 (UTC)
"Between 1929 and 1936, Coward recorded many of his best-known songs for His Master's Voice (HMV), now reissued on CD"
Given the interest in recordings is it possible to pin down in the article the first recording by anyone of any of his songs and the first recording by Coward himself? In ictu oculi (talk) 03:09, 5 December 2013 (UTC)
I don't recall seeing this information when researching the article back in 2008 and 2009, but there would be no harm in adding it if it came to light. The young Coward would surely have felt these two small milestones to be advances in his career. I'll keep an eye open for the info when next browsing in my Coward books. Tim riley (talk) 10:18, 5 December 2013 (UTC)
Looking at the edit page pursuant to recent discussions I see that various methods of citation have crept in leaving the referencing internally inconsistent. Some refs (e.g. 112 and 131) lack page numbers; a few books are given their bibliographical details within the notes rather than under the "References" list; some refs (e.g. 23) lack citations of any kind; recordings could do with OCLC numbers; the citation style for the Noël Coward Society is inconsistent, and so on. Would anyone mind if I tidied up and generally rationalised the refs and notes? It's a long time since Ssilvers and I took the article to FAC (March 2009) and I think a little repair and maintenance wouldn't go amiss. – Tim riley (talk) 10:07, 5 December 2013 (UTC)
By all means! Thanks, Tim riley, for taking care of this important maintenance. -- Ssilvers (talk) 14:05, 5 December 2013 (UTC)
Done. Please cast an eye over it when you have time, and check that I haven't missed anything or mucked anything up. Tim riley (talk) 16:14, 5 December 2013 (UTC)