Talk:Political positions of Noam Chomsky
|This article must adhere to the biographies of living persons policy, even if it is not a biography, because it contains material about living persons. Contentious material about living persons that is unsourced or poorly sourced must be removed immediately from the article and its talk page, especially if potentially libellous. If such material is repeatedly inserted, or if you have other concerns, please report the issue to this noticeboard. If you are connected to one of the subjects of this article and need help, please see this page.|
|This article is of interest to the following WikiProjects:|
|This talk page is automatically archived by MiszaBot I. Threads with no replies in 90 days may be automatically moved.|
- 1 minor corrections
- 2 Recent Additions; Criticism page on Chomsky is locked
- 3 Fair use rationale for Image:Chomsky linking arms Vietnam demo (fair-use).jpg
- 4 Bibliography
- 5 Noam Chomsky as an opponent of Kosovo Decolonization
- 6 Chomsky and Marx
- 7 a tamil tiger propaganda website as source
- 8 Bosnia, Kosovo and Serbian war crimes apologia
- 9 Leftist hagiography
- 10 "If the Nuremburg Laws were applied..."
- 11 Chomsky's alleged "denial" of the Cambodian genocide
- 12 Move discussion in progress
where it is spelled "sao paolo" it should be "São Paulo" the brazilian city. i would correct it but apparently the page is locked. --Lordjeremias (talk) 15:47, 3 July 2011 (UTC) apparently it become unlocked? so i could edit. edit done. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Lordjeremias (talk • contribs) 15:54, 3 July 2011 (UTC)
The sentence: "According to this propaganda model, more democratic societies like the U.S. use subtle, non-violent means of control, unlike totalitarian systems, where physical force can readily be used to coerce the general population." Put simply, this sentence has way too many commas that are unneeded and just make it more difficult to understand. I would fix it if I could, because I think it's poorly written. 184.108.40.206 (talk) 04:07, 25 November 2013 (UTC)
Recent Additions; Criticism page on Chomsky is locked
Prof. Chomsky's visit with Hezbollah is certainly a matter of his politics, although it might well be true that some of the other recent additions might fit better in the "Criticism of Noam Chomsky" page. That page, however, is locked.
Also, despite comments to the contrary, none of these additions are "smears". A smear is a lie, not an inconvenient statement of fact. And an encyclopedia entry on a prominent individual should be a centralized resource containing comprehensive information, both the good stuff as well as the bad.
If people find misstatements of fact, twisting of facts, or missing facts, then by all means please correct them. These should not be part of an encyclopedia entry. If wordings can be changed to make them more even-handed and neutral, then please make them. Polemical statements that are not merely statements of fact should indeed be modified or removed.
I have no interest in promoting any idea, agenda, or country, especially considering that I strongly disapprove of the behaviors and actions of *all* of the countries involved in these events. My interest is in the principle that information about important events in a prominent individual's life should go in an encyclopedia entry on that person. Some of these additions might be viewed as negative, but if I or anyone else finds additional positive contributions to make as well, then we should please do so. Sunshine is the best disinfectant.
Technetium25 19:44, 17 December 2007 (UTC)
Image:Chomsky linking arms Vietnam demo (fair-use).jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.
Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to ensure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.
If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images lacking such an explanation can be deleted one week after being tagged, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.
A page specifically for Chomsky's bibliography has been created recently Bibliography of Noam Chomsky. What is the general consensus on moving the partial bibliography regarding politics here and then providing a link? As things stand both appear incomplete but taken collectively it would be fairly extensive. Helpfully the new specific bibliography has a Politics list so a link directly to the relevant books should be possible. I’m fairly new to this Wikipedia stuff but guess I could have a go unless anyone more Wikipedia savvy volunteers. 2writer (talk) 21:08, 19 April 2009 (UTC)
- Ok, if no one objects, I'll move/merge the bibliography thats here to the new Bibliography of Noam Chomsky page later this week. There is already a link which will direct readers to the new page. Cheers. 2writer (talk) 23:10, 27 April 2009 (UTC)
Noam Chomsky as an opponent of Kosovo Decolonization
This section must clearly fail WP:NPOV. It is full of subjective language and includes citations to dubious 'news blog' type sites. Most particularly "glypx.com", which, by way of a whois search, appears to belong to an individual at Avtech Corporation, a US areospace company. Seems odd, not least because the site reads like a 'hate' and propaganda site and text is directly cut and pasted into this wikipedia section. More balance is certainly needed. 2writer (talk) 00:41, 8 May 2009 (UTC)
- On BLP related articles, do not hesitate to remove poorly sourced information. No matter who the subject matter -- Noam Chomsky, Christopher Hitchens, Ann Coulter or Rush Limbaugh -- I always zap it! Dynablaster (talk) 01:09, 8 May 2009 (UTC)
Fine that you delted it, but this article should definately have some information about is views regarding the war in Kosova. He has written about this in several of his books, and that should suffice as sources.220.127.116.11 (talk) 23:06, 1 November 2011 (UTC)
User "2writer" is completely oblivious or purposely malicious regarding Balkan Witness - balkanwitness.glypx.com which is not "dubious 'news blog' type sites" - we simply do not value websits by design and/or appearance - but nothing less is expected from person whose national affiliation stands in the way of his objectivity. So, it must be pointed out that Balkan Witness - balkanwitness.glypx.com happens to be a legitimate website which is maintained by Roger Lippman, famous and still very active human rights activist (also at the time leading anti-Vietnam war activist, "Seattle Seven", etc), and his brother Peter Lippman. Both of them are legitimate sources and their website is widely used as a reference source in various wikipwdia articles on Yugoslavia and Balkan wars, but more importantly in countless studies, reports and books on the issue. Website hosts writings, studies, reports and articles written by numerous established and well known experts, journalists, reporters, professors, activists, officials, etc, etc !!! Unfortunately "2writer" had already done significant damage to this particular part of the article, and soon after that he "retired" from wikipedia !--Santasa99 (talk) 18:48, 28 November 2012 (UTC)
- It doesn't look like to me like a site that would meet our reliability guidelines. If you disagree, I suggest that you raise this at the reliable sources noticeboard, before citing it. But in any case, your personal attack on another editor, and remarks about their national identity, are completely out of place here, and I recommend that you redact that part of your comment. RolandR (talk) 19:07, 28 November 2012 (UTC)
Chomsky and Marx
The claim that Chomsky supports and admires Marx is inaccurate. In fact, he has referred to Marxism as dogma, and has been consistently anti-marxist. See: http://pubs.socialistreviewindex.org.uk/isj74/arnove.htm CABlankenship (talk) 00:46, 8 May 2009 (UTC)
- Careful... My understanding, from having read much of his work, is that Chomsky respects Karl Marx and his analysis (not without reasonable criticisms), but has little time for much of Marxism, which he has referred to as a religion. Marx and Marxism shouldn't be equated. Pinkville (talk) 03:26, 24 October 2009 (UTC)
a tamil tiger propaganda website as source
Bosnia, Kosovo and Serbian war crimes apologia
Where is at least one paragraph on his stance on Serbian aggression in Bosnia and war crimes committed by Karadzic, Mladic, Milosevic & Co.? Same for Kosovo !? It's probably suits editor's adoration for "greatest intellectual" to have only those points which praise him, but you strangely omitting some of the worst controversies surrounding Chomsky and his bots - which is genocide denial and apologia for Serbian atrocities !--Santasa99 (talk) 18:17, 28 November 2012 (UTC)
This article must have been been purged of all information that might cast Chomsky in a negative light to people on the left. Either that, or you have here an immense and supposedly comprehensive article that manages to bring up R.E.M.--yes, the band--but somehow stay mum on what Chomsky had to say about the Khmer Rouge and Serb atrocities in the Balkans. Funny how that works. The article is locked in a state of leftist hagiography. And since it devotes a whole section to his influence even though it's supposed to be about his political views, why not also devote a section to all the times Chomsky has been accused of manipulating quotations (i.e., slandering), going all the way back to American Power and the new Mandarins? I happen to think that being called "an ignorant man who has read superficially in American history" by Arthur Schlesinger, Jr. is a bit more relevant than being called "the Elvis of academia" by Bono.18.104.22.168 (talk)
"If the Nuremburg Laws were applied..."
Apparently no one is willing to note that Chomsky clearly doesn't know that the Nuremburg Laws were the antisemitic laws adopted by the Third Reich, not the laws applied in the Nuremburg trials. Evidence of non-neutrality in the article? 22.214.171.124 (talk) 03:39, 17 October 2013 (UTC)
- If you look at the source cited, you will see that Chomsky starts his speech by saying "If the Nuremberg laws were applied, then every post-war American president would have been hanged. By violation of the Nuremberg laws I mean the same kind of crimes for which people were hanged in Nuremberg." So he clearly does know what he is speaking about. Evidence of not looking at the source before coming to vent your own prejudice on the talk page? RolandR (talk) 10:31, 17 October 2013 (UTC)
Chomsky's alleged "denial" of the Cambodian genocide
I confess that I'm not particularly well-informed about this controversy, but I'm slightly concerned about the suggestion that Chomsky and Herman "denied" the Cambodian genocide under the Khmer Rouge. Chomsky expands on his position on Cambodia in this interview:  Here Chomsky claims that the point of his writings on Cambodia was "don't lie about our crimes denying them [in East Timor], and don't lie about their [Khmer Rouge] crimes exaggerating them." Whether or not Chomsky was right that the Khmer Rouge's crimes were exaggerated at the time, I think it's unfair to imply that this is equivalent to denying there was any kind of genocide at all in Cambodia. Also in that interview, Chomsky describes the removal of the Khmer Rouge as a result of Vietnam's invasion of Cambodia as a "positive consequence", which would hardly be consistent with supporting or excusing the Khmer Rouge or their actions. Chomsky also expands helpfully on his position on Cambodia here:  I defy anyone to find a "denial" of the Cambodian genocide in that article. It seems to me that he is merely weighing up the differences in media reaction to the Khmer Rouge's atrocities and those in East Timor - again, regardless of what you think of his opinions on this matter, I think that suggesting he is "denying" the Cambodian genocide seems a little slimy and dishonest. I apologise if I've missed something obvious, or if I've upset anyone personally in my discussion of this subject (I realise it's a very sensitive topic), but I just think that if there's any inaccuracy or anti-Chomsky bias in that section it needs to be exposed and corrected. Injustice99 (talk) 22:32, 2 February 2014 (UTC)
- The title of the section is "Doubting the Cambodian genocide" not "denying" the Cambodian genocide. Based on Chomsky's writings in the late 1970s he was certainly a doubter. This section of the article does not say he was a "denier," His more recent writings you cited can be attribted to his latter-day revisionism -- plus an effort to deflect examination of his views on the Khmer Rouge by throwing up a smoke-screen and changing the subject to Timor and US bombing of Cambodia. I won't deny that both those events were also horrific.
- Chomsky's theory back in the 1970s was that the U.S. was leading a massive propaganda campaign to besmirch the Khmer Rouge. That campaign was based on unreliable reports by anti-KR refugees (Chomsky apparently believed that the offical pronouncements of the Khmer Rouge were more reliable). Chomsky said that the atrocities committed by the KR had been inflated by 100 times. In fact, the atrocities comitted by the KR and reported by other careful and expert authors were not inflated, and Chomsky was clearly wrong. Nor was there a massive propaganda campaign against the Khmer Rouge. Quite the opposite, Cambodia was not in the world news much during the KR period.
- Chomsky's argument was clever. He didn't claim any expertise on Cambodia, but he wrote favorably about pro-Khmer Rouge books and authors and unfavorably about authors and books who claimed that the Khmer Rouge were genocidal. That, in my book, is doubting the Cambodian genocide -- which became so increasingly obvious that many of the early deniers and doubters about Cambodian genocide recanted their views. Chomsky never did to my knowlege.
- "The title of the section is "Doubting the Cambodian genocide" not "denying" the Cambodian genocide."
- Indeed it is. So why does it link to an article entitled Cambodian genocide denial if, as you concede, "doubting" the genocide in the 1970s based on the information available at the time is emphatically not the same as denying the genocide ever took place to this day? (Yes, yes, I know there's a section on Chomsky in that article, but I would question his inclusion in it for that very same reason)
- "This section of the article does not say he was a "denier,"..."
- No, not outright it doesn't, but I think it pretty strongly implies it for the reasons I mentioned.
- "His more recent writings you cited can be attribted [sic] to his latter-day revisionism -- plus an effort to deflect examination of his views on the Khmer Rouge by throwing up a smoke-screen and changing the subject to Timor and US bombing of Cambodia."
- The phrase "can be attributed" seems dangerously close to a personal opinion given in order to avoid having to use the evidence I've presented. It "can" also "be attributed" to that being his central thesis on Cambodia from the start, as he himself claims it is, but that would be POV as well, and I thought we were meant to strive for neutrality here. Shouldn't we perhaps include Chomsky's responses to critics on this subject in detail, rather than the unsatisfactorily insubstantial "Chomsky continued to insist that his analysis of Cambodia was without error based on the information available to him at the time"? As for the "smoke-screen", this "can be attributed" (see what I mean?) to a simple desire for fairness in reporting, as with the claim "don't lie about our crimes denying them [in East Timor], and don't lie about their [Khmer Rouge] crimes exaggerating them", which, Chomsky claims, was the main point of his argument. Whether or not you agree with him seems irrelevant if you're unwilling to include Chomsky's later views on the subject in the article.
- Perhaps you think I am biased myself, but Chomsky is a highly contentious figure who ruffles a lot of feathers across the political spectrum and as such any articles discussing his political views need to be carefully monitored in case of bias - there are plenty of right-wingers, for example, with an axe to grind against the guy who will happily take his past views on sensitive subjects like this out of context in order to smear him. Maybe I'm misguided, but I just want to be totally sure that's not what's happening. Best wishes. Injustice99 (talk) 16:31, 3 February 2014 (UTC)
There are a lot of problems with this section. It looks like it's been written by people who have not actually read the books being discussed but rather articles about those books. For example, the term "bucolic idyll" not only isn't Chomsky's, it isn't Hidebrand-Porter's either. Someone who was reading a 2010 Andrew Anthony opinion piece in the Sunday Guardian seems to have written this. Those words are from the Andrew Anthony critique of the Hildebrand-Porter book, not from the book itself. They should certainly not be in quotes. http://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2010/jan/10/malcolm-caldwell-pol-pot-murder Chomsky responded to that essay here, and pointed out many problems: http://www.chomsky.info/letters/20100117.htm — Preceding unsigned comment added by 126.96.36.199 (talk) 04:34, 22 February 2015 (UTC)
Move discussion in progress
There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Albert Einstein's political views which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RMCD bot 15:29, 13 March 2014 (UTC)