Talk:Non-penetrative sex

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Significant expansion[edit]

As seen with this edit, and this, this and this edit that soon followed, I have significantly expanded this article. I also incorporated an incomplete draft that Katieskyv was working on; because it doesn't seem that she will be returning, as most student editors (which I assume Katieskyv is) do not (with regard to editing), I went ahead and used a lot of that material, significantly tweaking it (and will go ahead and inform Katieskyv of that on her talk page). I will better format the references she used (putting them in WP:Citation templates and adding links for them) at a later date.

As also seen with the significant expansion, it is not as easy to define non-penetrative sex, or outercourse, as one would think. The term outercourse, while maybe still qualifying as a WP:Neolgism, being used to define these activities also appears to be more prevalent than the term non penetrative sex or non penetrative sexual activities. While non penetrative sex is the more descriptive title for this article, outercourse (which existed as a Wikipedia article before it was merged with this one) appears to be the WP:Common name; I'm not arguing for a title change, I'm simply putting that out there. Flyer22 (talk) 02:04, 2 September 2013 (UTC)

I also made this tweak moments ago (though maybe it's not "usually" and is more so "more commonly" in that case; it's certainly "usually" with regard to fellatio). Flyer22 (talk) 02:53, 2 September 2013 (UTC)
Noting here that I also added this lead-in sentence for the second paragraph. Flyer22 (talk) 03:44, 2 September 2013 (UTC)
Not sure how I missed this WP:YOU violation, but at least it's fixed now. Flyer22 (talk) 14:10, 2 September 2013 (UTC)


Why does hookup culture have a section in this article? To my knowledge, there is nothing to say that these experiences are necessarily (or even probably) going to avoid penetration. It is a completely different issue which may involve particular acts of non-penetrative sex but where this is hardly an inherent trait of hookups in general. (talk) 20:44, 15 December 2013 (UTC)

Late reply: As documented above, that section was/is part of Katieskyv's draft (the draft that I tweaked before adding it to this article). You've raised a valid case regarding that section; I don't mind much if it stays or is deleted. Flyer22 (talk) 19:32, 5 March 2014 (UTC)
Update: I removed some content from the section to keep it on-topic. Flyer22 (talk) 19:41, 27 January 2015 (UTC)
Followup edit here. I don't know if I should simply remove that section, cut it down some more and integrate it into the Health risks section, or move it below the Health risks section. Flyer22 (talk) 19:47, 27 January 2015 (UTC)

Wrong definition[edit]

How can kissing be defined as sex? This article is about non-penetrative SEX but some of the activities included here are not sexual at all. It should only be limited to sexual acts, ie mutual acts that can cause an orgasm. You cannot have an orgasm by kissing, so it is not sex! (talk) 20:09, 17 April 2014 (UTC)

We go by what the WP:Reliable sources state, per WP:Verifiability, and some of those sources include kissing as a sexual aspect, just like it is noted as one in the Kiss and Making out articles and elsewhere on Wikipedia. They don't call kissing sex (not by itself anyway). And the lead of the Non-penetrative sex article does not call kissing sex either; if you notice, it states "includes various forms of sexual and non-sexual activity" and names kissing after that. I'm not sure what other definitions you are talking about, unless it's cuddling and bundling (tradition); I state that because all of the other acts in the article are undoubtedly sexual. As for "limited to sexual acts, ie mutual acts that can cause an orgasm"... Foreplay does not necessarily lead to orgasm, but is undoubtedly sexual.
And if you are User:Picker78, which you will deny that you are if you are him anyway, you know the drill when it comes to trying to impose your personal definitions on this article and elsewhere on Wikipedia. And on that note, Lost on belmont, you still watching this article? Or have you given up on trying to block Picker78? Flyer22 (talk) 20:33, 17 April 2014 (UTC)

Yes, I'm talking about kissing, cuddling and bundling. These activities should not be included in the article. This article is about non-penetrative SEX and should not include forms of non-sexual activity. It should be limited to sexual acts, ie mutual acts that can cause an orgasm. Foreplay does not necessarily lead to orgasm, but it CAN lead to orgasm. On the other hand kissing, cuddling and bundling CANNOT lead to orgasm so they should not be included in the article. Just remember, this article is about non-penetrative SEX. It should be limited to sexual acts. (talk) 22:35, 17 April 2014 (UTC)

No, you just remember what I stated above. I'm going by WP:Reliable sources on this matter while you are going by your personal opinion. Kissing is very often considered sexual when in the context of sexual intimacy; not only is that common sense, the sources state so. That is why kissing is included in this article and other articles about sexual activity; it is discussed in various WP:Reliable sources as not just an aspect of non-penetrative sex, but as an aspect of sexual activity in general. And as for cuddling, cuddling is also often an aspect of sexual activity, which is why it is mentioned in more than one Wikipedia article concerning sexual activity. Human sexual activity includes a variety of intimate behaviors, some of which are not necessarily sexual but come along with sexual activity, as also addressed in the Intimate relationship article. Also, I'm not sure why you are stuck on orgasm, but not all types of sexual activity lead to orgasm, but I suppose that depends on how you are defining sexual activity. All types of foreplay certainly do not lead to orgasm.
I'm done having this discussion with you. Flyer22 (talk) 23:00, 17 April 2014 (UTC)

Sex has to do with sexual organs. There is no sex if no sexual organs are involved. This article is not about romance, relationships or intimacy; it clearly is about SEX. (talk) 23:51, 17 April 2014 (UTC)

Flyer is correct, we only go by what reliable sources say. The personal opinions of individual anonymous Wikipedia editors hold no weight here. If authoritative reliable sources say kissing is an aspect of non-penetrative sex, then this article will reflect that. Zad68 00:01, 18 April 2014 (UTC)
@188: Wikipedia is not the place to correct how the world works. Your reasoning may fully convince yourself, but now you have to go and convince people who write outside Wikipedia because articles reflect what reliable sources say, not what they should say. Johnuniq (talk) 00:07, 18 April 2014 (UTC)
We have sexual activity defined as, " the manner in which humans experience and express their sexuality," and foreplay (which includes kissing) is included in that. Pretty simple. --NeilN talk to me 00:09, 18 April 2014 (UTC)
First and foremost, as others have said before, everything goes on reliable sources. If you have a reliable source that supports your claims, by all means, put your cards on the table. There are, however, many points you've made that must be refuted. For instance, "kissing is not sexual." Really? It isn't? I may be going only from personal experience here, but I'm pretty sure it is generally not accepted/expected that heterosexual males will proceed to French kiss some of their male friends. Why not? Again, with French kissing, it is generally not accepted to French kiss relatives. Again, why not?
Another statement made by you: "...sexual acts, ie mutual acts that can cause an orgasm." I would say fingering or handjobs blow that one up. I personally have been in situations where stimulation was not mutual (I was the active partner fingering my girlfriend). I was stimulating her sexual organs, and there were orgasms, but there was nothing mutual about it. This meets several of your points (organs and orgasm) but fails mutual, but is still sex.
Lastly, you say that kissing cannot lead to orgasm because... of some reason. A lot of sex is mental. People can orgasm without any stimulation via erotic hypnosis. (Just because you can't, doesn't mean that is isn't possible. But this is entirely irrelevant.)
My statements to you on the subject really don't matter though, because we have reliable sources for our information. Your opinion does not determine content (neither does mine or my personal experiences). If you want to continue in this vein, you can start by finding a reliable source that supports your definition of "sex." Lost on Belmont 3200N (talk) 00:43, 18 April 2014 (UTC)

Kissing is not sex. It may be part of sexual behaviour in general, but it is certainly no sex. You need to have genitals involved to have sex. Cuddling, bundling, (light) petting, kissing, body massage, foot fetish, nipple stimulation etc. do not fall under the "non-penetrative sex" category, because there are no genitals involved. All these acts are sexual in nature but they are definitely NOT "non-penetrative sex". I know some people will get my point. You can also look at this: (talk) 05:18, 18 April 2014 (UTC)

That link doesn't appear to be a reliable source. Even so, it specifically contradicts your earlier statement that orgasm is a defining factor of sex. Perhaps this is an indicator that the definition of sex is not a simple issue, and should be considered ambiguous instead of a yes/no checkbox. This seems to be how most reliable sources treat the matter. Grayfell (talk) 05:57, 18 April 2014 (UTC)

Then maybe there should at least be a distinction between sexual and non-sexual non-penetrative sex, even though I think that there cannot be "non-sexual sex" - I mean, this is crazy. The article writes: "It generally excludes the penetrative aspects of vaginal, anal or oral sexual activity, but includes various forms of sexual and non-sexual activity..." Can anyone explain to me how can there be "non-sexual sex"? Nevertheless if you still insist on keeping this as it is, then you should at least make a distinction between sexual and non-sexual acts. You cannot have footjob, handjob and mammary intercourse (which ARE non-penetrative sex) thrown together with kissing, massage and bundling. The article surely needs some change. (talk) 07:06, 18 April 2014 (UTC)

Kissing is not always a sexual activity, but it can be a sexual activity. Seems pretty clear to me, so what's the problem? The phrasing is a bit clunky? It's clear that's not what you're getting at. Nobody but you is proposing the term "non-sexual sex". Grayfell (talk) 22:54, 18 April 2014 (UTC)

I'm not the one proposing the term "non-sexual sex"; the article does! It clearly talks about "non-sexual activity", whereas the title of the article is "Non-penetrative SEX". This is nonsense. If we are to include acts like kissing and cuddling, then how about caressing or holding hands too? The list can be endless! I'm saying this again: the article is titled "Non-penetrative SEX" and it should only include sexual acts, ie acts that involve sex organs! (talk) 02:03, 19 April 2014 (UTC)

We have sources for kissing and cuddling. Do you have sources for your proposed additions of caressing and hand-holding? Grayfell (talk) 02:41, 19 April 2014 (UTC)

Acts like kissing, cuddling, caressing and hand-holding are part of human sexual activity, or human sexual behavior if you like, but they should not be considered part of non-penetrative sex. Even sources make mistakes. Another common mistake many sources make is confusing handjob with masturbation. So relying on sources is not how it should always be. (talk) 09:54, 21 April 2014 (UTC)

Sorry 188, but relying on sources is exactly how wikipedia works. we trust established published sources, not anonamouse "I know better"s. IdreamofJeanie (talk) 10:30, 21 April 2014 (UTC)

Oh really... What about some logic too? (talk) 10:44, 21 April 2014 (UTC)

Logic is good but so far all we've heard from you, starting from the opening post, is "because I say so". --NeilN talk to me 13:24, 21 April 2014 (UTC)

I explained my opinion very clearly. I think we should only include acts that involve sex organs. Otherwise, it is not sex. Doesn't it make sense to you? (talk) 14:14, 21 April 2014 (UTC)

It makes sense that it is your opinion, which counts for squat on Wikipedia unless backed up by reliable sources. --NeilN talk to me 14:32, 21 April 2014 (UTC)

Ok, then. The vast majority of sources about "non-penetrative sex" only refer to acts involving sex organs. Just search for "non-penetrative sex" on Google and you'll see. They talk about footjob, handjob, mammary intercourse, dry humping etc. Only a handful of "non-penetrative sex" sources talk about kissing or cuddling. What does your logic say? Put them in or leave them out? (talk) 14:57, 21 April 2014 (UTC)

please see erogenous zone: "People have erogenous zones all over their bodies, but which areas are more sensitive than others vary. Some may resent stimulation that others find arousing. The stimulation of these areas can produce gentle, mild or intense arousal." or even In short anything/anywhere is sexual if the person involves gets sexual pleasure from it, and it is not for you or me to limit others' expressions of sexuality. IdreamofJeanie (talk) 11:48, 22 April 2014 (UTC)

As I wrote above, what you describe is all part of human sexual behavior but not part of non-penetrative sex. Non-penetrative sex has to be limited to acts that involve sex organs. Try to understand the difference. Non-penetrative sex is regarded as an alternative to penetrative sex, meaning that both of them involve sexual contact that can lead to orgasm. "Biggest sex organ is still the brain"? Then shall we include virtual sex too? Or even sexual fantasies? Please be serious! We are talking about sexual contact in this article. (talk) 02:05, 23 April 2014 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 13 May 2014[edit]

Please add in the list of "External Links" because this website contains accurate graphics and hand-drawn sketches of various positions for men who have non-penetrative sex with men. I would also like to request be added in the list of "External Links" for Wikipedia's page titled "Men who have sex with men" and Wikipedia's page titled "Frot" (the page "Frot" is not protected, but I do not know how to properly add a link to there). THANK YOU!!!! (talk) 18:40, 13 May 2014 (UTC) (talk) 18:40, 13 May 2014 (UTC)

Red information icon with gradient background.svg Not done: Wikipedia:Spam#External link spamming as per WP:LINKSTOAVOID. Anupmehra -Let's talk! 18:53, 13 May 2014 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 11 March 2015[edit]

I would like to edit this page to shift its focus away from the harmful and misogynystic stereotypes of "virginity" as being defined by some sort sex act that must require a penis, and remove it in favor of substituting it with more factual information. In particular, I would like to replace the focus of "virginity" with more focus on how the sexual acts described in the article are often prepared for, executed, and to do so in a way that will not contribute to the social construct of "virginity" we as a modern society have little to no need to subscribe to.

Also, just as a fun fact, the word "virgin" was originally used in reference to a young, unmarried woman. I realized it has changed by today's standards, however these standards still contribute to the already skyrocketing rates of anxiety experienced by teenagers, and effect teenage boys and teenage girls very differently, as well as adding an additional layer of immense frustration to LGBTQ youth. Breeze3ki (talk) 05:52, 11 March 2015 (UTC)

Breeze3ki (talk · contribs), we're simply going by what the WP:Reliable sources state...with WP:Due weight. Among other things, the article notes how heterosexual couples and same-sex couples may define virginity; obviously, that includes non-penetrative sex or "outercourse." While I understand your concerns, and I note the penis aspect on my user page, Wikipedia is not the place to try to change the world (well, not generally anyway); see WP:Activism. Flyer22 (talk) 07:21, 11 March 2015 (UTC)
With this and this edit, I made the personal view aspect clear -- that what is virginity, safer sex, or more explicit sexual contact are the personal opinions of these couples. Flyer22 (talk) 07:50, 11 March 2015 (UTC)