Talk:Nordic race

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GA reassessment December 2010[edit]

GA Reassessment[edit]

This discussion is transcluded from Talk:Nordic race/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the reassessment.

The article fails criterias:

  • 1a the article is written in choppy prose, no coherence between most of the sentence or between sections.
  • 1b - the Lead is not an accurate summary of the article contents.
  • 3a - it does not adequately describe the current scientific consensus about the nature of race. It does not describe the most relevant criticisms of the notions of Nordic race theory (generally considered pseudo-scientific racism). Several sections simply summarise specific Nordic theories without providing information about the criticisms levelled against it.
  • 3b it goes into lots of undue detail in the sections about specific subdivisions and definitions of the Nordic race e.g. in the section about Coon (which is a completely discredited theory)
  • 4. It is not neutral in that it does not adequately present the fact that the theory holds no scientific credibility in current scholarship, it leaves out many of the most vocal critics (the criticism section mentions only Arnold Toynbee and Benito Mussolini!), and it doesn't put the nordicism into its historical context of race based genocide. It refers to Nazi Hans F. K. Günther as a "shining light of nordicism" (no attribution). ·Maunus·ƛ· 18:40, 12 December 2010 (UTC)

..........

You are right but in case you have not noticed this article is dominated by a very suspicious bunch. Look luck. Boo. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 199.125.185.140 (talk) 00:11, 16 December 2010 (UTC)

No response. I am delisting.·Maunus·ƛ· 01:44, 19 December 2010 (UTC)
Maunus, some of your comments are valid criticisms of the way this article have been messed up, but I must object to the last statement, which outright misrepresents the article. It says that the Nazis considered Gunther to be a shining light of Nordiciam, not that he was, as a point of fact. Paul B (talk) 17:33, 7 January 2011 (UTC)
Rereading the statemnent about Günther I can see that you are right, although I still think the phrasing invites doubt about the actual sender of the message. "Such views were extreme, but more mainstream Nordic theory was institutionalized. Hans F. K. Günther, who joined the Nazi Party in 1932, was praised as a pioneer in racial thinking, a shining light of Nordic theory." (no source is given) - the point about no crticism other than mussolini and Toynbee also still stands.·Maunus·ƛ· 19:30, 7 January 2011 (UTC)


Obsolete statements[edit]

"The emergence of population genetics further undermined the categorisation of Europeans into clearly defined racial groups. A 2007 study using samples exclusively from Europe found an unusually high degree of European homogeneity: "there is low apparent diversity in Europe with the entire continent-wide samples only marginally more dispersed than single population samples elsewhere in the world."

This is just incorrect. Despite the low interpopulation differences, clustering within Europe can be clearly documented. You can start e.g. here: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18758442 Centrum99 (talk) 20:21, 27 March 2011 (UTC)

I second this, Northern European (Nordic) particularism can be clearly seen through the recent mapping of genome in Europe. This sould be refleced in the article. Heinkhel (talk) 19:04, 24 November 2013 (UTC)

Comments[edit]

Comments about this article: "http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18758442"

With all my respect but I think that this article is clearly manipulated and it´s absolutely wrong. You only need to see that the map divisions correspond to real countries not to genetic studies, countries division can't be considered as an equivalent to genetic ethnicity. For example: a real person, me, I'm a red hair and my parents looks like what anyone could call Mediterranean race "by the way that is an invented race" and many people like me are red hair in the south of Europe, (I took a genetic test and it proves me that my biological parents are my parents, and the doctors said that this is only an example that in Europe we are very mixed from the north to the south, they included me in a genetic project proving that I'm related with Scandinavian people and other Celtics tribes, it was amazing considering that all of my family ancestors were from Spain). comment added by (David) 04:04, 20 May 2011 (UTC)

copying statement from User: Maeveh's talk page[edit]

I 'm editing Wikipedia photo of the Nordic race, because when I entered in wikipedia and saw these examples of Nordic race , I found them false and offensive .

I put photos of plates of Official anthropology, anthropologists like Bertil Lundman .

Meyers was a Nazi , and therefore was considered nordic , nordic but there's nothing in him, his features are Mediterranean , her hair is dark , her eyebrows are dark.

If you read the Germnai of Tacitus describes the Germanic people , and it's nothing like Meyers . I have nordic examples that are really different from Mediterranean examples . True Nordics, no mediterraneans o mediterraneans mixings.

Meyers was used as an example of Nordic race because he was a Nazi.

It's just offensive, it is offensive that you use a Mediterranean like him.

My photos show Nordic , your photos show Nazi Mediterranean .

My pictures are examples of true Nordic race , far from the Mediterranean .

Your examples are Mediterranean , far from the Norse.

The Nazis wanted to be Nordic , but were Mediterraneans , these features are mediterraneans.

Tacitus never described someone as well .

Everyone knows that the Nazis dreamed of being Nordic, but they were all Mediterranean.

These examples are Mediterranean.

I want to put people with NO MEDITERRANEAN features

OFFENSIVE

ARE MEDITERRANEANS

I try to put real examples of the Nordic race and prevent me from doing.

Plates are official. True Nordic.

It's offensive.

I can't understand this. First, you are removing templates that tell readers that there are problems with the article. I told you twice about these 5 days ago. Secondly, you are saying that a Dane and a Prussian have Mediterranean features. I was trying to figure out who Meyers was but I realised that you are talking about an encyclopedia, the Meyers Blitz-Lexikon which used Karl von Müller as an example of the Nordic type. You seem to be saying that Germans are Mediterranean, have I got that right? And "Nordic" and "Norse" are not the same thing. Note that the article also says "Coon affirms that the Nordic race are just depigmented Mediterranean. However, it also affirms that other anthropologists have called Nordic to other different types . Like for example, Bertil Lundman, whose examples of Nordic race are quite differents of the Nordid Race of Coon." In other words, according to Coon Nordics have Mediterranean features. It isn't up to Wikipedia to decide which description of the Nordic race portrays aome "true Nordic race". Dougweller (talk) 15:28, 14 May 2014 (UTC)
"The Nazis wanted to be Nordic , but were Mediterraneans". This is frankly nonsensical. "Meyers was a Nazi , and therefore was considered nordic". The image is of Karl von Müller, a member of the German National People's Party, which was a more traditionally conservative rival of the Nazi party. Joseph Meyer was an 18th-19th century scholar who founded the lexicon. The person in your image looks, frankly, mad. I don't think it's an appropriate lede image. Your upload information says it comes from "Book of Races FOR PUBLIC DOMAIN", which is not very informative. What book? Paul B (talk) 15:37, 14 May 2014 (UTC)

Bad examples of Nordic Race[edit]

Well, I tried to put photos of real examples of Nordic race and not permitted me.

I will explain to convince everyone that these pictures are bad and must be changed by my examples.

First picture:


This man, is physically Mediterranean.

To show this, I recommend you visit the wikipedia page about the Mediterranean race:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mediterranean_race

Now look at this picture:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Mediterranean_race_Fischer_Lexikon.png

Obviously has the same jaw, nose, etc. .. that the example of the Nordic race.

Here we will compare both examples:

Mediterranean:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Mediterranean_race_Fischer_Lexikon.png

Nordic:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:MPP-Nord1.jpg

Both look as the same race.

And now something very obvious is nonsense to an article which speaks of depigmentation and light hair and the main example has dark hair and bushy black eyebrows.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Karl_von_Müller.jpg

I want to put Nordic examples and non examples of Mediterraneans.

This is a nordic:


https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/10/Nordic_Race_Example.jpg — Preceding unsigned comment added by Maeveh (talkcontribs) 17:35, 14 May 2014 (UTC)

Maeveh, please try to engage in discussion rather than just assertion. On Wikipedia you can't say "look at the person he's obviously medierranean". You have to have what we call reliable sources. Read WP:RS. Also, the "Nordic race" is a concept - one of the categories into which the European population was divided by anthropologists. If they say a person is Nordic, then they are: at least according to one version of what is "Nordic". Of course if you have evidence that an anthropologist disagreed, that could be included. The article would benefit from including a range of views over what was or was not considered to be "Nordic". Paul B (talk) 17:59, 14 May 2014 (UTC)
Only people classified as such in historical sources should be used. No original research. Furthermore, we only use free images, and nothing indicates the ones you are adding are in the public domain. FunkMonk (talk) 18:07, 14 May 2014 (UTC)

Carleton Coon believed that type of examples were depigmented Mediterraneans, but in this case is not even depigmented and has dark hair and very dark eyebrows.

It is contradictory to speak of a depigmented race,with ligth hair, etc.. and put that example dark-haired with bushy black eyebrows.

That's a contradiction that you can`t deny. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Maeveh (talkcontribs) 18:13, 14 May 2014 (UTC)

All that matters is that it is properly sourced and that the images are free. And by the way, you have an amazing ability to determine colour from a black and white photo, which was probably retouched to make features more visible... Furthermore, cranial features are more important than pigmentation for these classifications. FunkMonk (talk) 18:16, 14 May 2014 (UTC)

The photos that I put were in black and white, compared eyebrows of some and the others. In the black and white looks perfectly with a normal vision. The bushy black eyebrows are mediterraneans. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Maeveh (talkcontribs) 18:23, 14 May 2014 (UTC)

I'm tired and do not want to continue. I just want people to know, that the examples of the Nordic race are frauds, which are clearly Mediterranean. The true Nordics are quite diferent. I personally do not want to to collaborate here anymore. But is evident that are mediterraneans and not nordics. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Maeveh (talkcontribs) 18:32, 14 May 2014 (UTC)

Maeveh, please try to keep your contributions in conventional paragraphs, rather than adding breaks after every sentence. It makes them easier to read. Also don't inset with the space bar. It creates formatting problems. Again, you are just making assertions. You are not a 1900-1950 anthropologist - the period when these categories were used. You cannot add to the debate with your own views. BTW, there were more categories than just Nordic and Mediterranean. You write as if a person had to be one or the other. Paul B (talk) 18:31, 14 May 2014 (UTC)