Talk:Military operations in North Africa during World War I

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What is this?[edit]

There really wasn't a North African theatre during WWI. There was a couple of Ottoman attempts to invade Egypt that never got very far. They can be (and are) covered as part of the Sinai-Palestine campaign. There was a war in the Western Desert between the British and the Senussi that was connected with the ongoing Italo-Senussi conflict, which received overt Turco-German assistance during the war. This is covered in another article. The Darfur campaign was unconnected to the other fronts, as was the French Moroccan campaign. These are unrelated campaigns (except at the level of the total war effort). There is nothing "North African" to tie them together. We might as well have a "South Hemispheric theatre" article. Since this article is in pretty bad shape, I don't know whether it is worth proposing we move it to North Africa during World War I or just proposing we delete it. Srnec (talk) 01:31, 19 February 2013 (UTC)

"There is nothing "North African" to tie them together" apart from geography.Keith-264 (talk) 21:52, 1 March 2014 (UTC)
I agree with Keith-264. There are certainly enough commonalities to tie these together within the scope of one article. I strongly oppose a move to "North Africa during World War I" - compare the scope and contents with similarly titled articles, such as Belgium or Southern Rhodesia in World War I, and you'll see that the two articles just do not cover the same ground. This article is uniquely about the military involvement of the region - so should be grouped as such. Brigade Piron (talk) 00:06, 2 March 2014 (UTC)
But who speaks of a North African theatre? As I said, we might as well have a "South Hemispheric theatre" article, tied together by geography. The campaigns in North Africa—the Ottoman attacks at Suez, the Darfur campaign, the Senussi campaigns, the Ottoman campaigns in Libya, the French campaigns in Morocco—are not a well-connected whole. The Ottomans in Libya could barely control or at times even influence the Senussi. The British refused to finance the Darfur campaign as part of the war. The Moroccans the French were fighting were not on the Central Powers' side. The Suez attacks obviously fit in better with the Middle Eastern theatre and not any North African one. In other words, geography is not enough. Srnec (talk) 00:45, 2 March 2014 (UTC)
It's enough for me. Why ignore a region when the others are covered? I could cope with a rewording of the title [(Military operations in North Africa (World War I)?] since calling it a theatre for convenience might look like OR. Strachan has "The war had been the final period of the Scramble for Africa" which suggests continuity with recent conflicts rather than change. Barraclough placed the origins of the Great War in Morocco 1911 moving eastwards around the Mediterranean littoral until it reached SarajevoKeith-264 (talk) 01:26, 2 March 2014 (UTC)
I'm not suggesting ignoring anything. It can all be covered. I am saying that "calling it a theatre for convenience" is, as I said it my last edit summary, "too suggestive". I said nothing about continuity. I have no problem covering these events in their Great War context, even as parts of the war. Srnec (talk) 05:26, 2 March 2014 (UTC)
Splendid. Would "Military operations in North Africa (World War I)" be satisfactory?Keith-264 (talk) 08:16, 2 March 2014 (UTC)
Actually, I'd oppose that move... I think the title is fine as it is, or as "theatre". Srnec, there is a lot of precedent for this. The Chilembwe uprising (no German involvement whatsoever), for example, is counted as part of the East African Campaign by plenty of reputable sources. In effect, it is categorized purely by its geography. This given, I don't see any problem with grouping some North African campaigns (which, if you follow your own argument, are not part of the African theatre of operations either because they're not against Germans...) Brigade Piron (talk) 08:36, 2 March 2014 (UTC)
I already said that "I have no problem covering these events in their Great War context, even as parts of the war." I said nothing about Germans, so what are you talking about? Srnec (talk) 23:29, 2 March 2014 (UTC)
Do writers and historians use the term? Keith-264 (talk) 10:19, 2 March 2014 (UTC)
I have not been able to find one source that uses "North African theatre" for WWI, if that is the term you're talking about. Srnec (talk) 23:29, 2 March 2014 (UTC)

Framework[edit]

User:Keith-264/sandbox2 I threw this together using the headings on the north African pages. A drastic ce and some work on the lead, background, prelude and aftermath should do it.Keith-264 (talk) 13:54, 3 March 2014 (UTC)

X9 281-320 narr.Keith-264 (talk) 11:22, 4 March 2014 (UTC)

CE[edit]

Did a big ce and added some more materialKeith-264 (talk) 17:35, 10 July 2014 (UTC)

Why are you copying and pasting text verbatim from other articles? That's not how summary style works, and it's counterproductive. Srnec (talk) 23:59, 10 July 2014 (UTC)
Thank you for replying. I've had that lot standing over for ages and just got round to it. I don't know where the material I didn't add came from, do you?Keith-264 (talk) 00:20, 11 July 2014 (UTC)
The material I deleted is material I originally added to Senussi Campaign. I suspect the other stuff you added is also copied from elsewhere, but I didn't check. Cannibalising other articles is not the ideal way to build up sketchy ones. First, you should locate sources that treat the North African operations as related. Currently the article cites none. Then, you can summarise the individual conflicts with links to the main articles. Srnec (talk) 02:31, 11 July 2014 (UTC)
Why related? It's a region not a campaign.Keith-264 (talk) 07:02, 11 July 2014 (UTC)
I've recast the lead, do you find it more suitable? You can check my other additions by looking at the citations.Keith-264 (talk) 07:16, 11 July 2014 (UTC)
This has nothing to do with either the lead or the citations. It has to do with duplicating text exactly as it exists at other articles. We should not have identical coverage of the Band of Oases campaign here and at Senussi Campaign. Nor of the Italian campaign in Libya. I reiterate: this is not how summary style works. Srnec (talk) 15:27, 12 July 2014 (UTC)
Please answer the question.Keith-264 (talk) 16:04, 12 July 2014 (UTC)
Please self-revert. Srnec (talk) 16:14, 12 July 2014 (UTC)
Wikipedia:Civility please address the question so that effort here can be reserved for the article.Keith-264 (talk) 16:24, 12 July 2014 (UTC)
No. You added material, you must justify it. Don't try to distract with a debate about the merits of the page or the wording of the lead. My concern is with the material you recently added. Srnec (talk) 17:09, 12 July 2014 (UTC)
Wikipedia:Civility my patience is at an end.Keith-264 (talk) 17:35, 12 July 2014 (UTC)
Is this page unreliable or the site?

http://www.historyofwar.org/articles/wars_senussi_uprising.html regardsKeith-264 (talk) 07:21, 11 July 2014 (UTC)

It does not meet our standards. Srnec (talk) 15:27, 12 July 2014 (UTC)

Moved page[edit]

Moved page to a title which seems a better description.Keith-264 (talk) 12:49, 11 July 2014 (UTC)

X3 p. 281Keith-264 (talk) 09:29, 12 July 2014 (UTC)
X4 p. 321Keith-264 (talk) 09:31, 12 July 2014 (UTC)