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Location maps available for infoboxes of European countries
On the WikiProject Countries talk page, the section Location Maps for European countries had shown new maps created by David Liuzzo, that are available for the countries of the European continent, and for countries of the European Union exist in two versions. From November 16, 2006 till January 31, 2007, a poll had tried to find a consensus for usage of 'old' or of which and where 'new' version maps. Please note that since January 1, 2007 all new maps became updated by David Liuzzo (including a world locator, enlarged cut-out for small countries) and as of February 4, 2007 the restricted licence that had jeopardized their availability on Wikimedia Commons, became more free. At its closing, 25 people had spoken in favor of either of the two presented usages of new versions but neither version had reached a consensus (12 and 13), and 18 had preferred old maps.
As this outcome cannot justify reverting of new maps that had become used for some countries, seconds before February 5, 2007 a survey started that will be closed soon at February 20, 2007 23:59:59. It should establish two things:
whether the new style maps may be applied as soon as some might become available for countries outside the European continent (or such to depend on future discussions),
Please read the discussion (also in other sections α, β, γ, δ, ε, ζ, η, θ) and in particular the arguments offered by the forementioned poll, while realizing some comments to have been made prior to updating the maps, and all prior to modifying the licences, before carefully reading the presentation of the currently open survey. You are invited to only then finally make up your mind and vote for only one option.
There mustnot be 'oppose' votes; if none of the options would be appreciated, you could vote for the option you might with some effort find least difficult to live with - rather like elections only allowing to vote for one of several candidates. Obviously, you are most welcome to leave a brief argumentation with your vote. Kind regards. — SomeHuman00:28, 19 February2007 (UTC)
We've had a bit of edit-warring slow "edit-warring" about the correct translation of this motto, which appears in the article's infobox. These two versions have been argued for:
"United and loyal 'til [the mountain range of] Dovre crumbles"
"United and loyal 'til [the mountain range of] Dovre falls [into others' hands]"
FYI: I've just written to Språknytt, the magazine published by Språkrådet (The National Language Council under Kulturdepartementet, The Culture Department) asking which of the two is the correct translation. I've asked for the answer to appear in Språknytt, as I reckon it is a reliable source.
Språknytt comes out only a few times a year, so we may have to wait a while for an official answer. --Hordaland (talk) 15:28, 3 May 2014 (UTC)
There hasn't been a recent edit war, the way I see it; an edit war requires the violation of the WP:3RR. If one also respects the inserted maintenance tag, I am sure this case may be solved peacefully.
It is not logical that a relatively flat mountain like Dovre may crumble or that the crumbling of this mountain would mean the end of a political agreement. This phrase was used in 1814 (see below) but is probably older, perhaps a military slogan originating from the many wars between Denmark–Norway and our archenemy Sweden, like when the latter occupied Trøndelag. If Dovre—the mountain dividing Norway into a Southern part (søndenfjelske), a Western part (vestenfjelske), and a Northern part (nordenfjelske)—had fallen to Sweden, the Kingdom would abstractly and to a lesser extent physically and communicationally have been separated into three parts, hence: South, West, and North are united and loyal to each other until Dovre falls, but after that we'll have to survive on our own.
The oath should be considered and interpreted within its context: the Constitutional Assembly had just adopted the Constitution as an attempt to avoid a union with Sweden, and likewise, it had elected Prince Christian Frederik of Denmark as King of Norway. Whilst supporters of a Swedish-Norwegian union were present there, the Assembly was mainly anti-Swedish, and they were also under the supervision of King Christian Frederick. Using a traditional, anti-Swedish slogan seems to fit in with this situation.
I applaud your choice to contact the Language Council, and it'll be interesting to read their answer. No More 18 (talk) 12:27, 4 May 2014 (UTC)
I don't really understand your argument. It seems to me that the whole point of the oath is that, as you say, Dovre is not likely to crumble any time soon. My reading has always been that "'til Dovre crumbles" is a poetic way of saying "forever". Or, to quote lokalhistoriewiki.no (translated from Norwegian by me): "Dovre has long been a symbol of eternal and unchanging nature in the consciousness of Norwegians". In other words, the oath is basically "United and loyal until the end of time" (when everything, presumably, will crumble). It seems highly unlikely to me that men in a nationalistic mood and seeking independence (as the overwhelming majority of representatives at Eidsvoll did) would swear the kind of wishy-washy, conditional oath you're suggesting, which is basically "loyal, unless the Swedes kick our asses". In any case, though, I guess we might as well wait for the Language Council. Maitreya (talk) 13:04, 9 May 2014 (UTC)
I should report that I got an e-mail from Språkrådet thanking me for my question and politely informing me that people "generally" can't order (bestille) an answer in the magazine. I'm quite sure that they will answer, and I'm still hoping it will be in the magazine. --Hordaland (talk) 13:07, 11 May 2014 (UTC)
It's certainly more in line with my thinking on this and probably the closest we can get to an accurate translation, so I say yes. Maitreya (talk) 09:22, 20 May 2014 (UTC)
I read the same article, and I could not find any (scientific or other) foundation for verifying whether 'crumble' is the real meaning. And to Hordaland above: When one needs to change 'Dovre falls' to 'Dovre stands' in order to back one's claims and theories, it might be an indication of that something is wrong. I do not know, and we shall remain respectfully disagreeing until Wikipedia falls. No More 18 (talk) 16:15, 9 July 2014 (UTC)
I would like to add (and I see that someone else has written it too) that in the Norwegian language, and probably also in English, it is semantically impossible that a mountain faller. It may rase sammen or even synke, but not falle. A fall requires a height between the object concerned and something else.
Furthermore, I find it hard to believe that 18th/early 19th-century Norwegians had a mutually known and used motto of this kind. They had no common arenas of meeting, but were more or less limited to their respective local communities. The only common national arena for farmers before 1814 was the Royal Army. This strengthens my suggestion that this motto has its origin in the Army and–more precisely–in the several wars where Sweden sought to capture Norway. No More 18 (talk) 16:15, 9 July 2014 (UTC)
Someone has removed the sentence from the page anyway so it doesn't really matter unless it should be added back. But...  While a lot of these search hits are people falling off mountain cliffs, several are not.  says: "Dovrefjell har ofte vært brukt som symbol på det grunnfestede, urokkelige («enig og tro til Dovre faller», «så lenge Dovre står») [...]" So while saying "faller" about a mountain in the sense that it falls apart is not exactly common in Norwegian, it is also not unheard of. -Hekseuret (talk) 01:55, 10 July 2014 (UTC)
The phrase 'så lenge Dovre står' gives five Google hits, while "så lenge Dovre består" gives three. One of these is SNL, which you are linking to above. In this case, I consider 'så lenge Dovre står' as an author-created example or explanation (rather than a real expression). Furthermore, a few things need to be investigated. SNL says: 'Dovrefjell has often been used as a symbol of [the permanent]'. It does not say when or since when it has been used as such. Was it before romantic nationalism, or was it during or after? In 1814, romantic nationalism had not evolved. The 'Constitutional Fathers' could impossibly have been using the motto within a romantic national context. The SNL article is too inaccurate, as it seems (alike other proponents of the 'crumble' theory) to mix several different centuries. To me, it is irrealistic that there, in 18th-century Norway or earlier, would arise any expression that was known/used by all Norwegians and that had a (romantic) national content. A Northern or Southern Norwegian farmer, for example, had never visited Dovrefjell in his whole life (with military service as a possible exception). They did not travel, at least not via Dovrefjell, but rather along the coast. Their literature was mainly religious, but in the 18th century some history books and geography books were popular, for example Gerhard Schøning's Norges gamle Geographie (1751), but also books about Alexander the Great and foreign objects. When considering Norway before 1814 (infrastructure, economy, and so on), I see no potential of growth (vekstvilkår, -forutsetning) for this expression. Except in the national Royal Army (est. 1628), as mentioned. No More 18 (talk) 03:23, 11 July 2014 (UTC)
WP:ENGVAR & EngvarB (US or British English?)
I think consensus on this matter should involve as many editors as possible. So I've started a discussion at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Norway (at least, I've tried to start one) with the above section title. --Hordaland (talk) 08:28, 20 July 2014 (UTC)