Talk:Nuclear warfare

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Section: 1980s [Edit War][edit]

Following is incorrect as the Able Archer happened in 83 as the Cuban missile crisis occured much earlier in 1962. I will remove it if no one has objection to it.

"The world came unusually close to nuclear war (although perhaps not as close as during the Cuban Missile Crisis) when the Soviet Union thought the NATO military exercise Able Archer 83 was a cover up to begin a nuclear strike. The Soviets responded by readying their nuclear arsenal. Soviet fears of an attack went away once the exercise concluded without incident." — Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.203.96.241 (talk) 19:06, 3 July 2011 (UTC)

Addition to accidental nuclear war[edit]

In cosmos, carl sagan discusses the possibility of a Tunguska like event which could accidentally trigger a nuclear war. Basically a comet fell in Russia in early 20th century, and carl sagan mentioned that such an event can be misinterpreted for a nuclear war. 115.242.75.145 (talk) 19:31, 11 May 2010 (UTC)

There is no wiki article on nuclear war survival[edit]

Other than a book citation for NWSS (Which is a good book). I have not edited for a while, so thought I would get feedback or perhaps someone else wants to make a page? I have some info on my own website, but it does not pull up in google searches very well for this topic. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Survivor (talkcontribs) 23:09, 31 July 2012 (UTC)

I just added a section; feel free to modify/expand. Which website is "[your] own website"? This article really needs references; we can use anything that barely passes WP:RS. (and Google's ranking algorithm does not determine the reliability of a source) Mysterious Whisper (SHOUT) 13:40, 4 August 2012 (UTC)
A start, although it both under and overstates the case. Sufficient Civil Defense preparations ahead of time, like the Swiss during the Cold War, would ensure nearly all the population would survive (in the US, the back of the envelope calculation was 1/3 of one year's annual "defense" budget could create a blast or fallout shelter space for everyone in the country including a year's worth of food, leaving out only those who couldn't get to one in time). Whereas Nuclear War Survival Skills doesn't and can't pretend that of the totally unprepared for whom the book was written, any but those who started preparations as long as a couple of days in advance would survive.
Short term nuclear war survival is neither mysterious nor difficult---but you have to go to the effort and expense ahead of time; it's unfortunately a poor way to buy votes, the advent of nuclear weapons was very poorly timed along with the development of "social democracies" and of course the aftermath of The Great War (WWI (sic)). (Medium term, due to disruptions in food, medicine etc. supplies is much more difficult; my personal requirements for the latter is why I'm no longer so interested in the concept.) After our first serious nuclear war, we can be sure the surviving peoples and nations will take it a lot more seriously.
I should also add that a lot of the pessimism towards it comes from nations where wiping out one city will take out the entire ruling class, such as the U.K (London) and France (Paris). Not such an issue for the US, where D.C. is neither a center for culture, media (those dispersed between NYC and LA) or business. Hga (talk) 12:45, 5 August 2012 (UTC)
It's more a placeholder than anything else; half of it is copied from the rest of the article, and I added the expansion tag when I created it. Outside of NWSS, I haven't thought of much else that can be added (although, I'm sure there's something out there, especially with the rapid expansion of the survivalist community as of late). Like I said, if you have any new sources, I wholeheartedly encourage expansion. Mysterious Whisper (SHOUT) 13:51, 5 August 2012 (UTC)

Beefing up Nuclear strategy[edit]

It's just a non-ref'd intro, a big See Also list of important related topics with no real organization, and a jumbled bibliography list. If any experts in the field want to make it better, that would be great. I'm working on another article where a link to article providing an overview of terms and strategies would help and will do what I can but.... other efforts would be great! CarolMooreDC 14:59, 4 January 2013 (UTC)

I added a few references on this article recently, I never really understand people who attach citation needed tags if a quick search will find sources for the statement, as was the case with the Swiss fallout shelter statement, that was being challenged up until I provided a reference. Contact me on my talk page if you need any help with anything, or are looking for references, as I've a lot of publications on the matter. I'm no expert though, I just find the field fascinating. I'm reading On Thermonuclear War at the moment, worth a read if you have the time. Boundarylayer (talk) 18:48, 19 January 2013 (UTC)
Sounds like the chiding I gave someone else for doing same thing, after I easily found the info they declared did not exist. But there are so many articles and so little time, so sometimes all one can do is chide and hope someone does something about it. Some times that motivates me on other articles. CarolMooreDC 01:31, 20 January 2013 (UTC)

Removal of a section see-also list by user User:Mysterious Whisper[edit]

This user continually removes a see also list in this article. The following links have been included in a see also under the "survival" heading - Duck and cover, Fallout shelter, Ark Two Shelter and Continuity of government, but bizarrely this user doesn't feel that they're relevant and likes removing the whole "see also" list.

Perhaps the user should see WP:SEEALSO - "The links in the 'See also' section do not have to be directly related to the topic of the article because one purpose of 'See also' links is to enable readers to explore tangentially related topics."

86.46.184.167 (talk) 02:17, 8 October 2013 (UTC)

  • Wikipedia has a very specific definition of vandalism, and this isn't it.
  • The guidelines you've linked to are for a separate see also section, usually placed at the end of an article. The guidelines for what you've been adding are different, and can be found here. Of course, your edits are even in conflict with the guidelines you link to, for example, in that you linked to fallout shelter which is already linked in the body text.
  • For the record, I've twice ([1] [2]) attempted to initiate discussion about this. In the edit summary of this edit, IP 86... claims the links have been added "In preparation of expanding this section". While I couldn't see how the links would help, I nonetheless gave IP 86... the opportunity to expand the section, and left the links there for over a month. The section was not expanded, so I removed the links.
  • Of course, so far, only IP 86... and I have weighed in on this. If consensus favors piling all those links at the top of the section, I won't persist in removing them. However, per WP:BURDEN and WP:BRD, the links should be removed for the duration of the discussion (I believe IP 86... is at 3RR as of now, while I've reverted twice; even so, I'm not going to touch it for now).
ʍw 02:51, 8 October 2013 (UTC)
Erm, in nuclear and thermonuclear warfare, there are few survivors. Duck and cover gives one days at best. that isn't surviving. Surviving until you starve to death or die of dehydration isn't survival either. It all comes down to *actually* surviving or lingering death. The latter equals death. *No* plan offers true survival for the species in the event of a total nuclear war. And as all war plans I'm aware of, and I have had clearance to actually review said plans for two nations, it means something, no plan offers survival beyond a handful of years. Duck and cover is really cool until the building falls onto your head. Then, since advanced life support isn't available, let alone rescuers, your coma won't last long. It's a moot point.Wzrd1 (talk) 03:14, 8 October 2013 (UTC)
As the section explains, there are many persons and publications that suggest large numbers of people could survive even a global thermonuclear war (and many who disagree). But this dispute isn't about the entire section, just whether there needs to be a {{See also}} at the top of it. ʍw 03:20, 8 October 2013 (UTC)

Large numbers of people survived the 9-11 attack on the WTC. Only to be crushed and ground to nothing recognizable by modern science, to include my cousin. That is most certainly not what I'd call surviving. In this case, one has to consider species survival, especially in the consideration of massive ecosystem damage that would impact weather systems on top of the already present massive dust/smoke/ash condition. Ronnie Reagan was considered an idiot when he first pronounced nuclear war survival, he's since lost ground entirely to the point of being a proponent of a particular political party of the Dodo birds.Wzrd1 (talk) 03:39, 8 October 2013 (UTC)

What does any of that have to do with whether there needs to be a {{See also}} at the top of the "Survival" section? As near as I can tell, me and IP 86... both support having the section itself; we're just arguing about a single point of content/formatting within it. If you would like to suggest removing or reworking the section in it's entirety, please start a separate discussion, so we can keep this one on topic. ʍw 03:50, 8 October 2013 (UTC)
Let me get this straight. Survival for a minute, day or year means survival for the species, let alone family, hence it is cool. Did I get that one right? Go interview Dodo survivors. Dead genetically is dead. Period. Not surviving to eat yet again for a bit.Wzrd1 (talk) 03:56, 8 October 2013 (UTC)

Back on topic, I've incorporated the desired links into the text, leaving absolutely no need for the see also header, which I thus removed. I trust that's satisfactory?

I've also removed the accusation of vandalism from the section title. If you wish to continue these accusations, I encourage you to do so somewhere more public, like WP:AN/I.

ʍw 04:43, 8 October 2013 (UTC)

Re this - Someone please explain how my reversions of a bold edit, each followed by attempts at discussion, and now, edits attempting to effect a real compromise solution, could possibly be considered vandalism? If the accusation can't be substantiated, they're bad faith at best, and could even be considered personal attack, and thus should be removed. ʍw 17:16, 8 October 2013 (UTC)
I also want to point out that, while the section title and statement by the OP is a clear attempt to put me on the defensive, this discussion is about IP 86...'s edits at least as much as mine. They made the initial edit, and refused to comment at either discussion I started, instead just reverting the page to their desired version. And now that they've finally started discussing, their comments are laced with bad-faith and accusations of vandalism; such is absent in my comments on their talk pages. ʍw 17:31, 8 October 2013 (UTC)
Your edits were vandalism as they repeatedly removed all mention to the likes of continuity of government etc, you have now tried to rectify your dogged removal of the see also list by writing ad-hoc one liners that incorporate the links, which sure is better than your previous knee-jerk reaction to wipe them completely, but I wonder, if you thought such links were completely inadmissible before hand, why the sudden change of heart? Furthermore, if you have some kind of passionate disdain, or OCD against see also lists, then why didn't you write your one liners days ago, and save all this trouble?
All I was aiming for was that readers could have relevant links at hand, and could go forth and read further articles related to the topic of nuclear survival, but I was confronted by someone who's behaviour suggests they found such links contrary to your own personal philosophy or some such, and therefore moved to completely censor all mention to them. Moreover your new one-liners are horrible, for example radiogardase and potassium iodide aren't the only radio-protectants stockpiled, but by the wording of your edit readers come away thinking that only two substances are held by the USA, which is false.
Secondly, the Ark Two Shelter is notable not for being the biggest underground warehouse, most folks aren't concerned with such redundant pissing contests, but is notable for being completely privately funded and well equipped to survive a nuclear war, being able to operate autonomously for a considerable amount of time, it has decontamination showers etc. etc.
Lastly, on a separate point, who wrote that crap about nuclear ethics? it sounds so condescending I laugh every time I read it. Correct me if I'm wrong but most people regard the prospect of war, of ANY type as immoral, nuclear no more so, and secondly, what has morality got to do with how organizations plan to survive? The argument pushed by that paragraph is essentially - War is bad, and preparing to survive a war makes you a bad man m'kay. So the Swiss are immoral, are they?
86.46.184.167 (talk) 18:23, 8 October 2013 (UTC)
Your edits were vandalism as they repeatedly removed all mention to the likes of continuity of government
"Even if misguided, willfully against consensus, or disruptive, any good-faith effort to improve the encyclopedia is not vandalism." (And I'll remind you to assume good faith). Also, there was still a link to continuity of government, in the ==See also== section proper (and there still is one in the text).
you thought such links were completely inadmissible
At no point did I suggest as much, and I even agreed that those links could be worked into the section. All the links you've suggested are exactly as relevant as anything in Category:Nuclear warfare; which ones to include in a see also header, if any, is a matter of editorial discretion, and a point at which we disagree.
why didn't you write your one liners days ago
Because you claimed you would be using them to expand the section, presumably removing see also links as you incorporated them. And, frankly, your combative attitude (coupled with ignoring my attempts to discuss) is not conductive to collaborative, constructive editing.
you have some kind of passionate disdain, or OCD against see also lists
I do not. I just don't think one is appropriate here.
your new one-liners are horrible
Ah, but much better than a see also, both by the usage guidelines and your own admission. I encourage you to edit and improve them to your liking.
ʍw 19:00, 8 October 2013 (UTC)

I'm still waiting for a policy-backed explanation of how my edits could be considered vandalism, or why the otherwise unsubstantiated accusations should be allowed to stay. For anyone new who happens upon this discussion, I've put together a timeline of all events I'm aware of leading up to this discussion and the accusations of vandalism:

I refuse to let unsubstantiated accusations of vandalism on my part be left on this page. Note that I created the Nuclear War#Survival section (not that I'm claiming ownership or the section or anything, just stating facts for the record), and I have made many other constructive edits to this and related articles, so any claim that my edits aren't a "good-faith effort to improve the encyclopedia" is going to need some significant evidence backing it.

ʍw 01:09, 9 October 2013 (UTC)

Comment by neutral editor: After having reviewed all the above-linked diff's, it is clear to me that User:Mysterious Whisper is not vandalizing the page, but that 86.46.184.167 is verging on edit-warring over "their" list of see also topics. That being said, it should not be controversial to include the list that IP 86.46.184.167 advocates. Indeed, it was once strenuously argued within both the Soviet and American military and civilian policy-making circles that nuclear war was survivable and that nuclear weapons were capable of being deployed in a superpower conflict with a clear winner. See, for example, Gray and Payne, "Victory is Possible," Foreign Policy, 39 (Summer, 1980), pp. 14-27 or Arnett, "Soviet attitudes towards nuclear war: Do they really think they can win?", Journal of Strategic Studies, 2:1 (Spring, 1979), pp.172-191. If these discussions were historically part of the debate of nuclear war, we can't ignore them because they make us uncomfortable or are considered ludicrous today. Eggishorn (talk) 05:33, 9 October 2013 (UTC)
There is indeed no vandalism here. The IP has does not seem to understand what vandalism means. MW is acting entirely in good faith. I think a bit should be added as noted above, but if this IP continues on this path I think a trip to ANI will be in order. Dbrodbeck (talk) 11:37, 9 October 2013 (UTC)
I quite agree with Dbrodbeck that i see no vandalism here, on anyone's part. I further agree that so describing MW's edits after the meaning of Vandalism on Wikipedia has been clearly explained (as it was above) is a violation of the no personal attacks policy.
As to the merits, including those links (which are I think relevant to the section) is in my view a good thing. I think that including them in prose is better than a see-also link as it allows context to be provided. in general I section-specific see-also links are poor style when another alternative is available. DES (talk) 14:39, 9 October 2013 (UTC)