Talk:OK Computer

Genre

I think that using an all-encompassing term like alternative rock for this record simply because it is easy to do so is somewhat lazy and inaccurate. Ok Computer is clearly the point at which Radiohead started transitioning into the experimental and unconventional band it is today. I think that Rolling Stone's characterization at the time of this record as art rock is a very strong validation of the point I'm trying to make. That being the case, I think it's more accurate to include something beyond just 'alternative rock,' seeing as how it's being cited from one the world's most popular music magazines.Mlillybaltimore (talk) 15:18, 19 September 2011 (UTC)

It doesn't matter what you think: you need to provide a reliable source for any change to an established infobox or article. Radiopathy •talk• 16:09, 19 September 2011 (UTC)

Did you not read the Rolling Stone review? It very clearly describes the record as 'an art rock tour de force.' Rolling Stone meets Wikipedia's standards for reliability. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mlillybaltimore (talk • contribs) 16:41, 19 September 2011 (UTC)

Rolling Stone describing it as art rock isn't good enough. For the record, Christgau calls it that too, and I'm sure a number of other critics do. In the case of RS and Christgau, they call it art rock and move on without describing how the album actually is art rock. One or two or ten publications calling Radiohead art rock isn't good enough, especially if they don't go into detail defending their assertion, because it's opinion rather than a description of the music. And that opinion will never be backed up in opinion because

"Art rock" as a defineable genre is not the same as "rock that is artistic", even though the term is loosely used to mean that by lazy critics (and the two sources I mentioned are surely using it in this sense). Art rock as a genre is a specific sound that is associated with 70s artists like Bowie and Roxy Music and genres like of post-punk and synth-pop. Radiohead does not fit well into any of those. Even in the second, lazier definition of art rock ("rock that is artistic"), which can be loosely equated with "progressive rock", Radiohead does not fit the bill.

The biggest issue is, for every critic that can be found that calls it "art rock" (and they usually use it in the very loose sense rather than the strict, descriptive sense that would be required to tag it as such) there are just as many or more disputing it. In fact, one of the most prominent critical trends about OK Computer is bickering over whether it counts as prog or art or whatever, or whether this is a mischaracterization. The controversy is mentioned a few times in the article, but the consensus is just not strong enough to call it art rock.

There's a very long section in the article detailing exactly how OK Computer sounds. Look, rock genres are really weird and nonspecific and just generally very bad descriptors. The genre box is good enough with a broad one like Alternative rock. --Brandt Luke Zorn (talk) 01:59, 20 September 2011 (UTC)

Just because you don't agree with the characterization doesn't mean that you can randomly delete sources considered reliable by wikipedia's standards. If you want to delete a reliable source, you need to at least replace it with a different reliable source. But the bottom line is that removing a citation from one of the biggest and most respected music journalism publications in the world just because you personally disagree with it is borderline vandalism. If you want to include a tenuous genre characterization, then find a source to back it up and put it on the page...don't randomly delete a perfectly acceptable citation. Mlillybaltimore (talk) 03:05, 20 September 2011 (UTC)

I wouldn't say I reverted it "Just because I don't agree with the characterization". It wasn't random, I gave very good points here drawing from the overall reception to the album and what the definition of art rock is. If you'd like to respond to any of these points then go ahead. And I actually don't "want to include a tenuous genre characterization", that's the point. I don't want to add another genre, I want to strip away one that is a weak descriptor that critics and the band have actively disputed. Calling OK Computer an art rock album is tenuous at best. --Brandt Luke Zorn (talk) 03:56, 20 September 2011 (UTC)

I have to agree with Brandt. "Art rock" can't be suitably affixed to this album, and a passing mention in a Rolling Stone review is not sufficient to change that. The citation is not "perfectly acceptable" because it relies on a passing phrase that can't even be specifically tied to the genre. A source describing why it's art rock in the genre sense would work (even then, that might be a minority viewpoint and has to be weighted accordingly). WesleyDodds (talk) 05:44, 20 September 2011 (UTC)

In a case like this where there is clearly a dispute regarding a genre, the easiest and most neutral way to resolve it is for people to simply provide a citation from a reliable third party source. I'll propose the following compromise: If either of you can find a reliable third party source that calls this record alternative rock, that also somehow is more acceptable to you than a review from one of the world's biggest music magazines (which you will have to explain), then please post it and I will cease adding the Rolling Stone article. But if you take the time to review Wikipedia's own guidelines, you'll see that my citation meets those guidelines. You're relying on conventional, popular OPINION as the basis for the argument you're making, whereas I'm providing a cited reference. Asking that you provide at least one single source that meets your own standards should not be too much to ask. Find the source and I will let this go.Mlillybaltimore (talk) 14:20, 20 September 2011 (UTC)

The review at Allmusic characterises the album as * Alternative Pop/Rock, Britpop, Alternative/Indie Rock, Indie Electronic. Radiopathy •talk• 14:59, 20 September 2011 (UTC)

Those are all listed under 'style,' not 'genre.' Alternative rock is also not listed in the text of the review. I don't know where you stand on the merits of allmusic.com vs. Rolling Stone, but the discussion would need to take place as to why one is more reliable than the other. Rolling Stone album reviews are cited on numerous Wikipedia pages, as are allmusic.comMlillybaltimore (talk) 15:15, 20 September 2011 (UTC)

We should just list a broad genre of 'Rock' and be done with it. Radiopathy •talk• 15:29, 20 September 2011 (UTC)

Works for me. Wesley? Brandt? Mlillybaltimore (talk) 15:32, 20 September 2011 (UTC)

No, Radiohead simply is an alternative rock band and OK Computer is an alternative rock album. I think Kid A and afterwards are disputable, but OK Computer still squarely falls in the alternative category. OK Computer is frequently mentioned as such in histories of alternative rock, and biographies of Radiohead describe OK Computer as an alternative album. It was nominated for and won the Grammy for Best Alternative Music Performance. Rock is too vague and removes them from the cultural movement and genre with which the album was and is widely associated. --Brandt Luke Zorn (talk) 22:40, 20 September 2011 (UTC)

The whole point of Wikipedia is to provide verifiable and reliable information within the scope of an article. Since this has obviously developed into a point of contention, I'm simply asking that you provide a source calling the album alternative rock that is more definitive than a piece in Rolling Stone. You saying that 'Radiohead is simply and alternative rock band,' and not providing any sort of citation is not how Wikipedia works. The Grammy award is meaningless...Jethro Tull anyone? Like I said before, find and post the source and I'll leave this alone. It amazes me that it's taken this long for someone to post a reliable source on this.Mlillybaltimore (talk) 23:42, 20 September 2011 (UTC)

There is no contention. Anyone remotely familiar with the subject will know that this could never be called Rock. All Radiohead albums articles should include (especially this one) Alt Rock. Electronic music should be included in later albums such as Kid A and TKOL. Snoop God (talk) 09:07, 21 September 2011 (UTC)

As I've said multiple times, the way Wikipedia works is that you have to provide verifiable and reliable citations. You don't just lazily throw up an unverified and uncited claim just because that is easier to do so and because it is your subjective opinion. If it's so painfully obvious that this record is in the genre alternative rock, it shouldn't be hard to find a reliable source to include with this article. Again, all someone has to do is cite a verifiable source that meets Wikipedia's standards for reliability, and this matter can be put to rest.Mlillybaltimore (talk) 14:11, 21 September 2011 (UTC)

References are not usually required in infoboxes. Also, adding a bunch of references about genre is subjective and pointless! You could Google "Radiohead, R+B" and find someone who thinks the band are a modern day version of Marvin Gaye. Snoop God (talk) 18:25, 21 September 2011 (UTC)

Adding a reference that meets Wikipedia's standards is not subjective. And if it is, it is certainly much less objective than demanding that something remain in an article with no citation at all. This whole thing started because I cited a review from Rolling Stone characterizing the album as art rock that some people took issue with, and insisted on reverting the infobox to alternative rock only, but with absolutely no verifiable or reliable sources to go along with it (which goes runs completely counter to Wikipedia's guidelines). I still stand by my argument that if it is so important to some parties that art rock goes, and alternative rock stays, there needs to be at least one citation to go along with it. I'm perfectly happy leaving both though if everyone can agree on it. I think a fair trade is that the majority alternative rock crowd gets to leave that genre in the infobox uncited, and the minority art rock crowd gets to leave the Rolling Stone review as an acceptable part of the article.Mlillybaltimore (talk) 19:09, 21 September 2011 (UTC)

What WesleyDodds said earlier about the Rolling Stone source still applies: "The citation is not 'perfectly acceptable' because it relies on a passing phrase that can't even be specifically tied to the genre." --Brandt Luke Zorn (talk) 20:36, 21 September 2011 (UTC)

Well than find a source calling the record alternative rock that is perfectly acceptable based on those standards. If you can't do that, then this whole argument is pointless.Mlillybaltimore (talk) 21:17, 21 September 2011 (UTC)

Again, you (or anyone) needs to find a source that exceeds the threshold for which the Rolling Stone article was deleted if you insist on including alternative rock at the expense of art rock. I'm begging any of the people who are so adamant about the inclusion of alternative rock to find a source that rises above the level of reliability that the Rolling Stone review did not meet. If Rolling Stone is not good enough, show me something that is. If no one can meet this most simple of requests, I humbly beg of you to stop beating a dead horse and just let both genre tags stay as is.Mlillybaltimore (talk) 23:48, 21 September 2011 (UTC)

OK, here goes:

• Pages 9 and 50 of Welcome to the Machine: OK Computer and the Death of the Classic Album by Tim Footman
• Page 575 of Alternative Rock by Dave Thompson
• Page 205 of A to X of Alternative Culture by Steve Taylor
• The Allmusic entry
• AV Club's Part 8 of its history on alternative rock in the 90s, which is focused almost exclusively on OK Computer.

I could go on. Again, this is a fact that can be taken for granted. I know you say Wikipedia doesn't work that way, and to a degree you're correct. However, this is more or less like someone on George Washington's page calling him a king because they found a reliable source that says something like, say, "George Washington acted more like a king then a president", then insisting on other editors to find sources that show Washington was a president. The Rolling Stone source, though reliable, is problematic. Numerous, countless, sources can be found to show OK Computer is alternative rock. --Brandt Luke Zorn (talk) 00:43, 22 September 2011 (UTC)

That's awesome, but only one of those sources meets Wikipedia's standards for being verifiable, and you offer nothing in the way of saying why The Onion is a more valid source than Rolling Stone. The Onion is not primarily a music review and journalism publication; Rolling Stone is. The Allmusic entry lists the style of OK Computer as alternative rock, not the genre. There's a link right at the bottom of this box that shows what counts as being verifiable or not, and only the last thing that you list qualifies as meeting those standards within the scope of that description. Again, even though some of you don't agree with the Rolling Stone piece doesn't mean that it doesn't meet Wikipedia's standards. Let's leave both and be done with it.Mlillybaltimore (talk) 01:28, 22 September 2011 (UTC)

Ok...here's the thing about that Onion piece...It doesn't directly call Radiohead or OK Computer alternative rock at any point in the article. It asks about the alternative nation in the title of the article, but in NO WAY does it even approach the threshold of directly associating the album OK Computer as being in the genre of alternative rock. The Rolling Stone piece is very clear in its association; this Onion piece is not. Like I said multiple times before, I'm fine leaving an unverifiable genre tag of alternative rock in the infobox if people can just agree to leave the Rolling Stone piece alone. It doesn't matter what you think...Wikipedia has very clear standards and they need to be adhered to. Let's just leave both and call it a day.Mlillybaltimore (talk) 01:48, 22 September 2011 (UTC)

And don't say that this or that 'is more or less like' anything. Wikipedia has very clear standards when it comes to verifiable and reliable sources. Nothing you listed above meets that threshold. In the analogy you used above, it would be extremely easy to find a reliable and verifiable source calling Washington a president. Nothing to date has been cited calling OK Computer alternative rock that meets Wikipedia's standards. Mlillybaltimore (talk) 02:07, 22 September 2011 (UTC)

I think this has gone on long enough. The problems with using Rolling Stone source have been made clear and you haven't responded in any meaningful way to the criticisms. Calling that an "Onion" piece is not accurate, as the AV Club is considered reliable as a source of cultural commentary and is not a satirical publication. In response to "The Rolling Stone piece is very clear in its association; this Onion piece is not." The Rolling Stone piece makes a passing reference, while the AV Club series makes extensive reference to OK Computer in the historical context of alternative rock.

It's silly how long this has gone on. The burden of proof in this case is on you, and you've distracted from the issue that "art rock" is a controversial tag, not alternative rock. Calling OK Computer alternative rock is self-evident and uncontroversial and can be backed up by numerous sources, and has been done. You have not responded meaningfully to problems with the Rolling Stone source (i.e. that it's a tossed-off reference in an opinion piece), which make it unusable for this purpose as Snoop God, WesleyDodds, and myself have discussed above. I'm going to remove art rock from the infobox. Art rock should not be put back in unless you can find a better source. --Brandt Luke Zorn (talk) 03:14, 22 September 2011 (UTC)

Absolutely not. The AV Club is part of the Onion, don't pretend that it is not. And in any case, that source never calls the album alternative rock, and YOU have not made the case that Rolling Stone is a less reliable source than what you provided. Tell me the exact quotation where it does. You still have not provided a verifiable and reliable source backing up your assertion, where as I have. Include a source that meets Wikipedia's standards.Mlillybaltimore (talk) 03:22, 22 September 2011 (UTC)

It has NOT been backed up by reliable and verifiable sources. You need to provide citations that meet Wikipedia's standards to have a leg to stand on here.Mlillybaltimore (talk) 03:26, 22 September 2011 (UTC)

If you believe other people agree with you, try to attain consensus here on the talk page. If you persist in reverting and waring you will be blocked, again. Thanks. Snoop God (talk) 09:58, 22 September 2011 (UTC)

"The AV Club is part of the Onion, don't pretend that it is not." Wrong, and it makes me feel like you're trolling.

"YOU have not made the case that Rolling Stone is a less reliable source than what you provided." Wrong. This is why I keep reiterating the problem with the RS source that you have not addressed. So, I quote again: What WesleyDodds said earlier about the Rolling Stone source still applies: "The citation is not 'perfectly acceptable' because it relies on a passing phrase that can't even be specifically tied to the genre." You still have not responded to that. Your actions have become borderline disruptive and I would strongly advise that you do not revert the page again. --Brandt Luke Zorn (talk) 18:35, 22 September 2011 (UTC)

Featured candidate?

This is an absolutely flawless article. I see nothing against it to get around to making it an FA candidate. Sir Richardson (talk) 19:41, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

It does seem very close, and it would be fantastic if this important article could make it. Brandt Luke Zorn, I see that you are the main editor and that you have previously taken music articles to FA status. Have you considered taking this one all the way? --Lobo (talk) 19:51, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

Yes, and it is very close. The only thing I really think it needs is an expansion of "Tracks 7-12" to match "Tracks 1-6", which I will find time for in the next two weeks. --Brandt Luke Zorn (talk) 04:15, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

That's great news! Also make sure the references are perfectly formatted. There are quite a few inconsistencies right now, which FAC does not like at all. It might be a good idea to send it through peer review first, as well, just to iron out any potential problems before you get there. You want to be as prepared as possible. --Lobo (talk) 07:37, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

Could you help iron out some of those inconsistencies and whatever other formatting/wording problems? I'd really appreciate it. --Brandt Luke Zorn (talk) 08:07, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

Yeah I guess so. It's a fairly tedious job but OK Computer means a lot to me (as do Radiohead in general) so I'll do what I can to help get the page promoted. I'll wait until you've finished adding content though, because otherwise we may end up with inconsistencies again. --Lobo (talk) 11:56, 20 February 2012 (UTC)