Talk:Objectivism and homosexuality

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to: navigation, search
          This article is of interest to the following WikiProjects:
WikiProject Law (Rated Start-class)
WikiProject icon


This article is within the scope of WikiProject Law, an attempt at providing a comprehensive, standardised, pan-jurisdictional and up-to-date resource for the legal field and the subjects encompassed by it.
Start-Class article Start  This article has been rated as Start-Class on the project's quality scale.
 ???  This article has not yet received a rating on the project's importance scale.
 
WikiProject Objectivism (Rated Start-class, Mid-importance)
WikiProject icon This article is within the scope of WikiProject Objectivism, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of the philosophy of Objectivism on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.
Start-Class article Start  This article has been rated as Start-Class on the project's quality scale.
 Mid  This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale.
 
WikiProject LGBT studies (Rated Start-class)
WikiProject icon This article is of interest to WikiProject LGBT studies, which tries to ensure comprehensive and factual coverage of all LGBT-related issues on Wikipedia. For more information, or to get involved, please visit the project page or contribute to the discussion.
Start-Class article Start  This article has been rated as Start-Class on the project's quality scale.
 

Article Cross-Talk[edit]


Use of cross-talk page[edit]

This section is transcluded from Wikipedia:WikiProject Objectivism/Cross talk.

There doesn't seem to be much use of the Objectivism cross-talk page lately. I'm the only one who has used it since February. Is it still relevant? --RL0919 (talk) 20:41, 5 November 2012 (UTC)

Perhaps not. Although I love it, I have to say it now seems like an esoteric feature. Karbinski (talk) 14:25, 13 November 2012 (UTC)

Reversions[edit]

I can understand (don't necessarily agree) if someone wants to restore some of the material I cut in earlier edits, but I'm not clear on the objection to moving a statement made after Rand's death to the section titled, "After Rand's death". And pointing a wikilink for the article Objectivism (Ayn Rand) directly to that article instead of to a redirect seems to be the sort of thing that is entirely non-controversial. But for some reason it is being reverted. Some explanation would be appreciated. unsigned by User:RL0919

RL, I tried to separate the deletions from the other changes—I kept the improvements to the citations, for example—but I missed that move. I'm going to look for it now and put it back. Phil Spectre (talk) 03:43, 8 October 2009 (UTC)
I haven't re-done any of the deletions I made previously, so I'm not sure I follow this explanation. --RL0919 (talk) 03:52, 8 October 2009 (UTC)
To clarify, I was trying to undo only your reversion, not the other changes. I succeeded in preserving your improved citations but missed the move of the Branden paragraph. You're completely right that it doesn't deserve its own section and instead belongs in the "After Rand's death" section, so I moved it. Phil Spectre (talk) 04:01, 8 October 2009 (UTC)
Ok, I think I figured it out. I saw that the Branden paragraph had gone away and misread your comment, thinking you'd combined a few positive changes with a wholesale reversion. Pardon the confusion. Phil Spectre (talk) 04:03, 8 October 2009 (UTC)

Which "statement"?[edit]

In the first section of this article (Ayn Rand), there are around a dozen statements made by Rand regarding the morality, the aesthetics, and the role of the government regarding homosexuality.

And then the second section (After Rand's death) begins with this sentence:

After Rand's death in 1982, her heir, Leonard Peikoff, went on record disagreeing with Rand's statement.

That's ambiguous about twelve times over! Which of the dozen statements in the first section did Peikoff "go on record" disagreeing with? Did he disagree with some of them and agree with others? If he disagreed with all of them, that would mean he thought that the government should make homosexual activities illegal, but should prevent corporations from discriminating against gay people. I find this very unlikely.

I'd like to see something much more specific. For example, Ayn Rand is quoted as saying that she found homosexuality disgusting. If this is the statement that Peikoff disagreed with, does that mean that Peikoff publicly stated that Ayn Rand did not really find homosexuality disgusting? Or, if he disagreed with her view that gay people have no "right to be protected from discrimination in the private sector", did he specify any limitations on what the government may do to prevent such discrimination? — Lawrence King (talk) 05:39, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

Okay, I followed the edit trail and found that this comment was added on 27 December 2006 by an editor who hasn't made any Wikipedia contributions since March 2009. [1] So I have rephrased the sentence to make it into a simple introduction to the paragraph. I have also removed the footnote, since it points to a web site where I can spend $12 to buy a 99-minute audio tape. Perhaps if I spent this money and played the tape, I might be able to learn exactly which "statement" of Rand's was disputed by Peikoff. But I just don't feel like doing that. (And btw, I don't think that this is a valid Wikipedia reference anyway.) — Lawrence King (talk) 01:04, 19 October 2009 (UTC)

Saying what sources support[edit]

There is currently a statement in the article about Ayn Rand's political views that says the following: "She endorsed rights that protect gays from discrimination by the government (such as apartheid), but rejected the right to be protected from discrimination in the private sector (such as employment discrimination)." There are three sources now attached to this sentence. The first one does not mention gay rights or homosexuality at all. The second one rejects "the notion that homosexuals should be prohibited from experiencing the joy of sex", but doesn't say anything about other types of discrimination, public or private. The third one is a 1998 essay on the subject by an Objectivist, so it may be relevant for the "After Rand's death" section, but doesn't attribute anything to Rand herself other than a general quote about the morality of altruism. Basically this sentence has no source. I've been marking these as "failed verification" in the hope that someone would come up with something, but at this point I think it just needs to be rewritten to say something that can be documented. --RL0919 (talk) 15:35, 26 July 2013 (UTC)

You're as free to rewrite it as I am to put it right back to the way it is. MilesMoney (talk) 01:45, 27 July 2013 (UTC)