Talk:Objectivism and homosexuality
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Use of cross-talk page
- Perhaps not. Although I love it, I have to say it now seems like an esoteric feature. Karbinski (talk) 14:25, 13 November 2012 (UTC)
I can understand (don't necessarily agree) if someone wants to restore some of the material I cut in earlier edits, but I'm not clear on the objection to moving a statement made after Rand's death to the section titled, "After Rand's death". And pointing a wikilink for the article Objectivism (Ayn Rand) directly to that article instead of to a redirect seems to be the sort of thing that is entirely non-controversial. But for some reason it is being reverted. Some explanation would be appreciated. unsigned by User:RL0919
- RL, I tried to separate the deletions from the other changes—I kept the improvements to the citations, for example—but I missed that move. I'm going to look for it now and put it back. Phil Spectre (talk) 03:43, 8 October 2009 (UTC)
To clarify, I was trying to undo only your reversion, not the other changes. I succeeded in preserving your improved citations but missed the move of the Branden paragraph. You're completely right that it doesn't deserve its own section and instead belongs in the "After Rand's death" section, so I moved it. Phil Spectre (talk) 04:01, 8 October 2009 (UTC)
In the first section of this article (Ayn Rand), there are around a dozen statements made by Rand regarding the morality, the aesthetics, and the role of the government regarding homosexuality.
And then the second section (After Rand's death) begins with this sentence:
- After Rand's death in 1982, her heir, Leonard Peikoff, went on record disagreeing with Rand's statement.
That's ambiguous about twelve times over! Which of the dozen statements in the first section did Peikoff "go on record" disagreeing with? Did he disagree with some of them and agree with others? If he disagreed with all of them, that would mean he thought that the government should make homosexual activities illegal, but should prevent corporations from discriminating against gay people. I find this very unlikely.
I'd like to see something much more specific. For example, Ayn Rand is quoted as saying that she found homosexuality disgusting. If this is the statement that Peikoff disagreed with, does that mean that Peikoff publicly stated that Ayn Rand did not really find homosexuality disgusting? Or, if he disagreed with her view that gay people have no "right to be protected from discrimination in the private sector", did he specify any limitations on what the government may do to prevent such discrimination? — Lawrence King (talk) 05:39, 15 October 2009 (UTC)
Okay, I followed the edit trail and found that this comment was added on 27 December 2006 by an editor who hasn't made any Wikipedia contributions since March 2009.  So I have rephrased the sentence to make it into a simple introduction to the paragraph. I have also removed the footnote, since it points to a web site where I can spend $12 to buy a 99-minute audio tape. Perhaps if I spent this money and played the tape, I might be able to learn exactly which "statement" of Rand's was disputed by Peikoff. But I just don't feel like doing that. (And btw, I don't think that this is a valid Wikipedia reference anyway.) — Lawrence King (talk) 01:04, 19 October 2009 (UTC)
Saying what sources support
There is currently a statement in the article about Ayn Rand's political views that says the following: "She endorsed rights that protect gays from discrimination by the government (such as apartheid), but rejected the right to be protected from discrimination in the private sector (such as employment discrimination)." There are three sources now attached to this sentence. The first one does not mention gay rights or homosexuality at all. The second one rejects "the notion that homosexuals should be prohibited from experiencing the joy of sex", but doesn't say anything about other types of discrimination, public or private. The third one is a 1998 essay on the subject by an Objectivist, so it may be relevant for the "After Rand's death" section, but doesn't attribute anything to Rand herself other than a general quote about the morality of altruism. Basically this sentence has no source. I've been marking these as "failed verification" in the hope that someone would come up with something, but at this point I think it just needs to be rewritten to say something that can be documented. --RL0919 (talk) 15:35, 26 July 2013 (UTC)