Talk:Olive branch

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and the link is?[edit]

I fail to see the link between the section Ancient Greece and Rome and association of olives with peace--mrg3105 (comms) ♠♣ 23:55, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

Soviet/U.N. Usage[edit]

I'm taking classes in college right now about Soviet Propaganda, and twice now I've seen logos of the Hammer and Sickle superimposed over a globe of the world with two branches on each side (they may or may not be olive branches). Does anyone know about the link between this symbol and the United Nations emblem? I have many speculative ideas, but if someone has definite facts they'd be much appreciated, and perhaps interesting for this page. --Loudlikeamouse (talk) 18:43, 22 September 2008 (UTC)loudlikeamouse 18:42, 22 September 2008

Noah[edit]

Of the Noah story the article says, "This story has led to the dove and the olive branch (combined with the classical tradition) to become symbols of peace." No source is given, and I suspect that the reverse is the case.

Genesis says nothing about peace in connection with the dove and the olive branch (and, incidentally, nowhere does the Bible associate the dove with peace). The association of the olive branch with peace is pagan and classical. There are ancient Christian depictions of the dove-and-branch, for example in the Catacombs of Priscilla in Rome (2nd or 3rd century) but, of course, in the absence of any contemporary description, we do not know what it means there. As a Christian image, it may depict a symbol of the Holy Spirit.

The dove-and-branch as a peace symbol was well-established in the late 18th century, and has become even more widespread in the late 20th century. Probably Noah has been read in this light, and the symbolism has been applied recently, i.e., it is the modern symbol that has led to Noah's dove-and-branch being seen as emblematic of peace.

If anyone can find a source showing an association of the dove-and-branch with peace earlier than the C18th it would be interesting to see. Marshall46 (talk) 16:38, 22 September 2010 (UTC)

One such representation in the catacombs of Rome, about 2nd century CE, is inscribed in Greek "EIPHNH", (eirene, or peace). See Peace symbols for more details and citations. Marshall46 (talk) 10:07, 30 September 2010 (UTC)
Now added here. Marshall46 (talk) 10:16, 30 September 2010 (UTC)
The section "Jewish" at first referred to the olive branch brought back by the dove to Noah. Genesis 8:11 refers not to an olive branch but an olive leaf (alay zayit in Hebrew). St Jerome's translation of the Hebrew Bible into Latin made alay zayit into ramum olivae (branch of olive). Christians had already made use of the pagan olive branch in their art, and St Jerome, who was free in his translation, may have used the phrase ramum olivae for that reason. Whether he did so nor not, St Augustine wrote that, "perpetual peace is indicated by the olive branch (oleae ramusculo) which the dove brought with it when it returned to the ark," thus confirming this Christian reading of the Noah story.
I have changed the section "Jewish" to include the readings of Gen 8:11 in the Midrash and Talmud, but all they do is make clear that the olive branch has no place in Jewish tradition. Should the section "Jewish" be removed? Or should it refer to the misconception that Gen. 8:11 in the Hebrew Bible contains the Christian symbol of the dove and olive branch? Marshall46 (talk) 18:52, 22 April 2011 (UTC)
Removed section "Jewish", but kept link to Noach so that the Jewish interpretation of the olive leaf can be followed up. Also removed from Wiki Project Judaism for reasons explained above. If a good argument for retaining the section can be made, it can be put back. Marshall46 (talk) 16:22, 24 April 2011 (UTC)

Lead paragraph[edit]

I removed this:

The original link between olive branches and peace is unknown. Some explanations center on that olive trees take a long time to bear fruit. Thus the cultivation of olives is something that is generally impossible in time of war. peace symbols - Learn English Magazine - British Council Another explanation could be, since olives are among the first crops, offering an olive branch establishes camaraderie, and maintains peace, through the exchange of cultivation knowledge.

1. It was not in the main body of the article, so it does not summarise what follows.
2. Most of it is speculation without any source and the one source is a dead link.
3. There is good, sourced material on the original link between olive branches and peace in the section on Classical antiquity, so it is not true to say that the original link is unknown. Marshall46 (talk) 16:28, 24 April 2011 (UTC)

Passage removed[edit]

I have removed this unreferenced passage:

"Though the dove is a symbol of peace, the olive branch is also used as a gesture of peace. For example when saying "offering an olive branch." This comes from the Great Flood, when Noah sent a dove out to search for land that would be safe for them to travel to and live on. The dove came back with an olive branch in it's beak, which apparently symbolised the end of God's war with mankind."

If the editor had read the referenced section on the olive branch as a symbol of peace, and the article on Peace symbols, he would have seen that it comes not from the Hebrew Bible but from pagan Greece. In the story of the Great Flood, the dove comes back to Noah not with an olive branch but an olive leaf, and neither in the text nor in Biblical commentaries is it treated as symbol of peace. The dove and the olive came to be regarded as a peace symbol only when the pagan symbol of the olive branch was adopted by Christians, and only after then did St.Jerome translate the relevant passage in the Hebrew Bible from olive leaf to olive branch. Marshall46 (talk) 16:36, 19 June 2011 (UTC)

Genesis 8:11[edit]

I have reverted the deletion of this passage: "However, in Jewish tradition there is no reference to an olive branch in the story of the Flood and no association of the olive leaf with peace." Sagi Nahor, who deleted it, wrote, "Inaccurate. Read any Jewish Bible commentary such as Rashi to Genesis 8:11."

Here is Rashi's commentary on Gen 8:11. "Torn off in her mouth": "It is my opinion that it [the dove] was male. Therefore, it is sometimes referred to as male and sometimes as female. This is because wherever {Hebrew Ref} appears in Scripture it is referred to as female; for instance: ["His eyes are like] those of doves bathing near the water brooks," "Like the doves of the valleys all of them moaning." And as: "Like a foolish dove."

And "Torn off": "Means: 'he plucked.' The Midrash Aggadah explains it [ {Hebrew Ref} ] as 'food' and interprets {Hebrew Ref} as 'speaking.' She said, 'Better that my food be as bitter as an olive from the hand of G-d than sweet as honey from the hands of human beings.'

No mention of peace and no mention of a branch. Also, follow up the footnotes to commentaries in the Talmud. No mention of peace or a branch there either, only a leaf torn off.

You can read Rashi here. Marshall46 (talk) 14:57, 25 October 2011 (UTC)