Talk:Omar Bradley

Untitled

DO YOU HAVE ANY MORE INFO ON HIM

You're welcome to add (in small caps!) anything you know. :) Atorpen 00:04 Feb 26, 2003 (UTC)

You mean in proper case. Small caps just means smaller capitals... aka, quieter yelling. 99.245.62.92 (talk) 20:29, 13 April 2010 (UTC)

What is the story with him being made General of the Army after World War II ?

I think that when he was made Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, Douglas McArthur was still on active duty, so they wanted to give him the same rank.--Rogerd 04:47, 23 September 2005 (UTC)

without precedent in modern warfare

In a move without precedent in modern warfare, the US 3rd Army under George Patton disengaged from their combat in the Saarland, moved 90 miles to the battlefront

What about the redeployment of General Rokossovsky's 2nd Belorussian Front (A whole army group) in April 1945? It disengaged from fighting the remnants of Army Group North in East Prussia, crossed Poland and redeployed north of General Georgy Zhukov 1st Belorussian Front on the Oder in two weeks, ready for the start of the Battle for Berlin. Philip Baird Shearer 01:21, 21 October 2005 (UTC)

Third Army took a Corps that was still in contact with the enemy, broke off, turned 90 degrees north, and attacked with two divisions all within 72 hours. DMorpheus 15:02, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

Also, the action by Patton took place in December 1944. RadManCF (talk) 22:17, 6 June 2009 (UTC)

Please look up what "unprecedented" means. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.219.199.4 (talk) 08:57, 27 June 2010 (UTC)

Why did Bradley have an Arabic given name?

I've always wondered why one of America's most famous generals held an Arabic first name. I always figured he was of Arabic ancestry, but this does not seem to be the case. Does anyone have a reliable source saying why his parents chose to give him the Arabic name "Omar"? —Gabbe 08:11, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

Gabbe, see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arabic_name#Modern_and_regional_variations. I guess his parents simply thought it to be a good name. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.148.0.59 (talk • contribs) January 30, 2006

It says "Sometimes Muslim names are used by people who are not Muslims" and lists Omar Bradley as an example. Not much of an answer to my question... Obviously his parents thought it was a good name, but I wonder if anyone can confirm or deny that there is anything more to it than just that. —Gabbe 07:46, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

i would guess his parents were a fan of Omar Khayyam's poetry. Apparently there is an Omar in the bible too, though.--Calm 06:10, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

Well, according to the Omar disambiguation page, Omar is a German name as well. I think this sounds more plausible. --Inahet 22:49, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Negative, I am a German living in Germany and I can assure you Omar is not a German name. --Schwarzschachtel (talk) 08:57, 25 December 2008 (UTC)

I'd say this: "An English name of Biblical origin; it was particularly popular among the American Puritans." Ciobanica (talk) 16:19, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

And some Hispanic people, (Omar Rodriguez-Lopez & Omar Bravo) have the name too.--Greasysteve13 05:24, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

According to his autobiography he was named for Omar D. Gray a local newspaper editor his father admired. Jackfork (talk) 04:59, 3 January 2009 (UTC)

Comment

Since I was asked to look at this article, I would like to say it looks good. Informative and neutral. I would be interested to know a little more about the relationship between Bradley and Patton, especially when Bradley became Patton's commander rather than vica versa. DJ Clayworth 17:14, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

Personal life

This article does not mention his first wife, Mary, or second wife, Esther. Both are shown on the headstone. Nor does the article mention whether he had any children. The German version of the article at least mentions Esther "Kitty" Buhler. Group29 18:37, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

He had one daughter. With his first wife, his firstborn was a son, but was stillborn and unnamed. DMorpheus (talk) 16:40, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

Top Image

It's too bad, we don't have a colored photo of Bradley as a 'General of the Army' (five-star). The 'four star' is cool, but it's not the pinnacle (rank wise) of his Army career. GoodDay 22:55, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

I met General Bradley in 1971 while I was in the Air Force as a Medic working at the March Air Force Base Hospital. He was having surgery. He was most warm and friendly and barring the fact that I was an airman in rank (the bottom of the barrel) and he a "General". Of course when he saw my name tag said 'Bradley' probaly broke the ice, when He spoke first saying, "Good morning Airmen Bradley, How are you young man?" and I said," Fine Sir". Our conversation continued for the next half hour as though I was talking to my grandfather.

In the time of war [compasion] is an element that is sorely missed. I know to this day that Omar was that balance struck to temper Patton and his exccessive aggresiveness.

                                                                    Sgt. Bradley USAF     21 Feb 09

Bradley Patton Relationship

Bradley and Patton were never friends or knew each other before WW II but they got along fine during the war because both hid their real feelings.

As shown by his diaries, Patton thought he was better man and general than Bradley. To his face, however, Patton was the loyal subordinate. The same is true of Bradley. He never criticised Patton during WWII for conduct of the Sicily campaign.

Its only after Patton's death and his publication of his papers/diaries that Bradley went public with his feelings.

As for true feelings. Bradley thought Patton while willing to take risks, great at pursuit, and a "thruster" was a sloppy administrator and adverse to detailed planning. Further, he thought Patton was too interested in public publicity. Patton, OTOH, thought Bradley had no vision or imagination, feel for the enemy, and was unwilling to take risks.

IMO, the men worked best when Patton was boss. Bradley could temper Patton recklessness, and was able to perform the detailed planning neccessary to implement his ideas.

Further, Bradley was an example of the peter principle. He natural ceiling in my opinion was Army Commander. He no ability to "feel" the enemy or understanding of what an enemy could do or couldn't do. For example:

1) Prior to D-day he thought that the landings would be easy, the tough part would be stopping the enemy counterattack ala Salerno or Anzio. Completely wrong.

2) He completely missed the significance of the Hedgerows on military operations.

3) After the breakout he contantly reined Patton in, and forced him to provide flank guards, completely misreading the ability of the Germans to counterattack. The failure to close the gap at Falsaise is his fault.

4) Having overestimated the germans during the Normandy breakout, he went the other extreme and considered the war won in late August and early September. Advancing on a broad front, he threw away any chance of reaching the Rhine.

5) He continued to underestimate the Germans throuhout Sept-Dec 1994. Launching penny packet attacks all along the front, he incurred thousands of casualities while accomplishing nothing. He was taken surprise during the Battle of the Bulge because he thought the German could never counterattack.

6) After the Bulge, he went back to Overestimating the Germans. Demanding that the ENTIRE Rhine west back be occupied before any further advance. Holding up Patton. Demanding the Ruhr pocket be elminated before any further advance into Germany, etc.

7) Finally, it should be noted that Bradley was against Patton's landing in Sicily, even though this was correct strategy and hastened the germans withdrawl. The only thing wrong with them, if fact, was that weren't done sooner and in bigger strenght. But Bradley didn't like to take risks.

xxxxx

As per (7) above, Patton's plan for separate landings wasn't adopted. Patton, at Montgmery's insistence, was made to land in the Gulf of Gela alongside Monty's Eighth Army, because otherwise the risk of the piecemeal defeat of the Allied armies was too great (IMO probably rightly, however it may look in hindsight or in a wargame, in real life Ike and Alex couldn't afford the risk of such a disaster). Bradley may well have disapproved of Patton's subsequent thrust via Palermo to Messina, which probably did speed up the German withdrawal.

Some responses:

::::1) Prior to D-day he thought that the landings would be easy, the tough part would be stopping the enemy counterattack ala Salerno or Anzio. Completely wrong.

Not sure about that but, if true, it is completely consistent both with German defensive doctrine and Allied experience so far in the war. The best predictor of the future is the immediate past.

::::2) He completely missed the significance of the Hedgerows on military operations.''

As did every single other Allied commander. How is this a particular fault of Bradley?

::::3) After the breakout he contantly reined Patton in, and forced him to provide flank guards, completely misreading the ability of the Germans to counterattack. The failure to close the gap at Falsaise is his fault.

This is a sweeping judgment, but again I think this is a fault shared by several commanders. Bradley was wrong at Falaise but so was Monty and Eisenhower.

::::4) Having overestimated the germans during the Normandy breakout, he went the other extreme and considered the war won in late August and early September. Advancing on a broad front, he threw away any chance of reaching the Rhine.

Again, this is a fault of most of the Allied command structure, not Bradley in particular.

::::7) Finally, it should be noted that Bradley was against Patton's landing in Sicily, even though this was correct strategy and hastened the germans withdrawl. The only thing wrong with them, if fact, was that weren't done sooner and in bigger strenght. But Bradley didn't like to take risks.

xxxxx

::::As per (7) above, Patton's plan for separate landings wasn't adopted. Patton, at Montgmery's insistence, was made to land in the Gulf of Gela alongside Monty's Eighth Army, because otherwise the risk of the piecemeal defeat of the Allied armies was too great (IMO probably rightly, however it may look in hindsight or in a wargame, in real life Ike and Alex couldn't afford the risk of such a disaster). Bradley may well have disapproved of Patton's subsequent thrust via Palermo to Messina, which probably did speed up the German withdrawal.

Hard to say. The drive to Palermo and then Messina had a lot of prestige and morale value to the US Army, which had been badly tarnished at Kasserine. But the drive northwest didn't make a lot of sense in any other terms. If you are referring above to Patton's battalion-sized flanking landings along the north coast of Sicily, Bradley was indeed generally right. DMorpheus 19:18, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

Placement exams

ANB says he was appointed an alternate for his congressional district, but the man directly appointed failed his qualifying exam, which is not the same story. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 00:06, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

Name

Why Omar? Septentrionalis PMAnderson 00:06, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

See first discussion above.~ (The Rebel At) ~ 15:32, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

Navy Distinguished Service Medal

The Wiki page on the Navy Distinguished Service Medal says that Omar was issued one. Should this be added to awards or explaned how a Army Man gets a Navy medal?

Yes, it needs to be explained. The criteria of the medal would seem to exclude Bradley, who was never in the Navy or Marines. 75.76.213.106 (talk) 05:02, 1 December 2010 (UTC)

I think the Navy DSM can be awarded to "any" service member who served in "any" capacity with the Navy or Marines. But we'd have to find a source that clarifies that in greater detail. In Eddie Rickenbacker's autobiography ("Rickenbacker", Fawcett Crest, 1967) on page 397 Rickenbacker describes how 20 American Distinguished Service Medals were awarded to members of the Russian Air Force and 20 American Navy Crosses were awarded to members of the Russian Navy during a special awards presentation in WWII. Maybe the rules were different back then. 71.139.247.247 (talk) 03:27, 14 June 2011 (UTC)

Concern about German Civilian Casualties

General Bradley wrote how he had to vigorously insist on being given Heavy Bomber support during operations against German Panzer Tanks. He said; 'the command seemed to think they could win the war simply by bombing Germany into the ground. They never stopped to consider the effect this was having on German civilians. Churchill wanted the V rockets attacks stopped on London. Bombing alone could not snuff out the V Rockets, we had to have control of the ground they were fired from'. General Bradley got the Air Support he needed and his strategy against the Panzer's was an outstanding success, without any German Civilian losses.Johnwrd (talk) 00:50, 25 May 2009 (UTC)

Order of the Bath

I removed the post nominal letters KCB, referring to his honorary status as Knight Commander of the Order of the Bath, from the introduction of this article as Mr. Bradley was not closely associated with the United Kingdom in the sense required by the Manual of Style for biographies. The full style guidelines for the use of post nominal letters can be viewed here: Wikipedia:Manual of Style (biographies)#Post-nominal_initials. TrufflesTheLamb (talk) 20:30, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

Demotion to Colonel in 1943

The "dates of rank" table at the bottom lists him going from Lt. General in 1943, to Colonel in November 1943, to full General in 1945. What's up with the demotion? Is this an error, or? It doesn't seem to be a post-war demotion, given the date of November 43. Perhaps it should be explained somewhere if this actually correct. The text seems to emphasize the fact this was "regular army", but the war wasn't over. Is this some post-war demotion that is incorrectly dated (and ordered), or something else?

Warthog32 (talk) 00:55, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

I strongly agree. I noticed this as well, and combing both this page, discussion, and the internet, I can't find anything on it. 99.245.62.92 (talk) 20:29, 13 April 2010 (UTC)

During WWII, officers actually had multiple ranks, usually different ones; the permanent usually lower rank in the Regular Army (United States) and the temporary usually higher rank in the Army of the United States. So the change of rank to colonel in 1943 in the Regular Army really was a promotion from his lieutenant colonel rank from 1936. In the meantime, he was functioning in his temporary general ranks in terms of responsibilities and commands. — MrDolomite • Talk 21:02, 13 April 2010 (UTC)

"He drove the Germans and Italians out of Sicily"

This is an exaggeration and should be removed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.219.199.4 (talk) 08:59, 27 June 2010 (UTC)

If you can prove that there are any Germans in Sicily, go ahead... . I think what's meant to be said is the German Wehrmacht and the Italian Fascists were driven out of Sicily, which is a true statement. Unless you can find Wehrmacht and Fascist soldiers there. In all seriousness, the Italians were sick of the war already, and the Germans knew they had to defend Germany. What did they care about Italy? The war had turned. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.174.83.232 (talk) 02:51, 6 July 2010 (UTC)

Colonel

A recent edit suggested Bradley skipped the rank of Colonel. The following, from [1], p. 199 would seem to contradict. (Note: Ward is called Lt. Col.)

...as indicated by a notation marked with the initials of Col. (later Gen.) Omar N. Bradley who then was in the General Staff secretariat. Even this draft was not used, because (as noted long afterward)31 the rush of draft legislation which soon came about rendered it out of date. An accompanying memorandum of that same day, 19 June 1940, bearing the initials of Lt. Col. (later Maj. Gen.) Orlando Ward...

--John (User:Jwy/talk) 06:43, 12 August 2010 (UTC)

Seeing further evidence supporting the "skip" on the web. Will restore and see if I can find an "official" date-in-rank listing to confirm. --John (User:Jwy/talk) 07:33, 12 August 2010 (UTC)

Bradley Was Incompetent

I cannot understand how Bradley ever made 5 star General. The disaster at the Falaise Pocket, when Bradley let so many Germans escape, and more pointedly the Hurtgen Forest campaign which is considered to be an American defeat and is also the single longest battle in the history of the US Army, clearly indicate ineptitude. I find Bradley to be pedestrian and mediocre. He interfered with Patton, who was one of the best generals of the war. If I was Eisenhower I would have relieved Bradley of command. Does anyone know why Bradley was given command responsibility when he clearly lacked the genius that was required? Was it politics? Did he manipulate people? Was he a boot licker? Was he a back stabber? Have any psychological studies been made of him? Any books been written on this matter? How did such an inept commander rise to such importance? History is replete with accounts of incompetent generals who obtained rank through politics and personal connections, was Bradley one of these? What were his political connections? Few people know about the Hurtgen Forest disaster, I can think of only one movie made about it--"When Trumpets Fade" (an excellent movie, by the way, much better than that clown cartoon "Saving Private Ryan"). You can view "When Trumpets Fade" on Youtube, by the way. Was the Hurtgen Forest debacle covered up? I think a section dealing with this matter would clarify things, illuminate who Bradley really was and improve the article. 71.139.247.247 (talk) 20:00, 13 June 2011 (UTC)

This is an interesting topic, but this is not what a talk page is about. If you can find reliable sources that make support your views, you can include them in the article if you reference them --rogerd (talk) 02:57, 14 June 2011 (UTC)

I was re-reading my post and it seems harsh. I have great respect for our country's veterans and don't mean to be derogatory in any way. I'm just wondering how Bradley got so much responsibility when he seemed um, "less" than qualified shall we put it? Maybe he was just a team player. Any Bradley experts out there? 71.139.247.247 (talk) 03:33, 14 June 2011 (UTC)