Talk:Orinoco

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Map[edit]

You can upload the map of the Orinoco Basin included in the Spanish Wikipedia (article: Cuenca del Orinoco). --Fev 22:56, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

Ciudad Bolívar or Ciudad Guayana?[edit]

The article states that the river is navigable by ocean going ships as far as Ciudad Bolívar at the confluence of the Caroni River. Hower the Caroni enters the Orinoco at Ciudad Guayana, not Ciudad Bolívar, the latter being further upstream. So which of the two is it navigable to? Booshank 18:46, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

  • Hello bookshank, I've visited the two places in question, and you're right, "the Caroni enters the Orinoco at Ciudad Guayana". I took the the http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c4/Orinico_ciudad_bilivar_venezuela.jpg photo' a couple of years ago (sorry about the spelling mistake in the filename)- the original first bridge over the river was at Ciudad Bolívar, and as you can see by the photo' , the river really does narrow at this point. I can't be sure about this, but I'd GUESS that ocean-going ships can get as far as Ciudad Bolívar. (The two cities are fairly close, - about an hour or so by car, if I remember rightly)Wikityke 22:25, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Trivia[edit]

Trivia about the Orinoco River may (but probably doesn't) belong in this article; however, trivia that is incidental to the river belongs in the article where it is central, with a link to the Orinono. An example of this is music about places. The song or album should link to the place, not vice versa. Hence, mention of Enya's song Orinoco Flow does not belong in this article. --Bejnar 23:56, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

I think the song Orinoco River does belong to this article's trivia's section. Trivia is defined on Wikipedia as "unimportant (or "trivial") items, especially of information", both of which actually fit here. I think many readers including myself (and the previous contributors of the same whom you've edited out) feel that this piece of information is relevant and informative to other readers. Further upon reading this talk page, I have reason to believe that it is only your personal opinion that this information does not belong here in this article, which essentially does not mandate its removal. Please let other users be the judge of it too and don't let one personal opinion stand in the way of contributions which can make wikipedia better. --supersan 11:28, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

  • Sure, I want the opinions of others. That is why I put this topic on the talk page. Please state the relevance of Enya's song to the article. How does her song enlarge our understanding of the Orinoco River? --Bejnar 07:53, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

Fair enough, but before i answer this question you have to please bear in mind that Trivia by definition is a place to hold "unimportant (or "trivial") items. Items of trivia do not help you understand the subject because that is what the main article is for. Think of it as a footnote for uncommon information. Regarding this subject in particular, trivia about orinoco would be a tour guide telling you about the river, who happens to mention in between that "do you know which bamd had a #1 hit uk song about this river in the 90s?" or "you know this river was filmed in the enya's song about the same!", etc. Can you not see that happening? It is interesting information for many readers, may not be to you, but many would be happy to click to the other article to learn and mention such stuff to many others too. Superasn 11:25, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

  • Hi, I checked the pages but could not find any items of conflicts because neither is this fact "made up" nor "irrelevant" as you think it may be. Also just curious but did you even read my above reply before posting yours become you're asking the same question i replied to already?? Lastly, can you answer to yourself one more question after which feel free to remove this trivia because this is my last reply wrt this topic anyway. Do you see programmes like Who wants to be a millionaire or any school quizzes? Its too bad you cannot see them asking questions about two topics that may not have a seamless link to each other (incl. items that do not "enlarge" your knowledge of something but are good to know or are nice fun facts to share anyway). 122.162.135.103 04:51, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
Two answers: (1) Yes, I read your reply, and I did not see that it answered the question. It did says that "it might be interesting", but it did not say how, nor did it relate it to the river. I gathered that hearing the fact would be fun. (2) What you are talking about is social interaction, having a conversation, while to quote Wikipedia:Five pillars, "Wikipedia is an encyclopedia ... Wikipedia is not an indiscriminate collection of information. Wikipedia is not a trivia collection." --Bejnar 00:32, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
Orinoco Flow's song maybe is a trivial fact on this article, however it is a very important example of how the Orinoco River has always interested scientists, artists and writers from the whole world. --Fev 02:08, 6 April 2007 (UTC). Therefore, I think Bejnar is wrong and should respect this trivial reference in the article. Thank you. --Fev 02:11, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
The song Orinoco Flow by Irish singer Enya is often mistakingly thought to be named after the Orinoco, but in fact it was named after the studio in which it was recorded. How does this show "how the Orinoco River has always interested scientists, artists and writers"? Wouldn't a trivial reference to how the Orinoco Studio was named be the appropriate one, assuming, arguendo, that that type of trivia belongs here. --Bejnar 16:56, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
My friend Bejnar: You are wright. However, the name of the London Orinoco Studio was named after the Orinoco river. Besides this fact, the video clip by Enya shows an ancient boat (like the ones used by salesmen that discovered the Orinoco River beginning the 16th century) and it is undenyable that this is not to make a reference to the London Studio. Neither the named studio could be joined to the word "flow", unless I don't know any English. --Fev 00:24, 7 April 2007 (UTC). And, how is it possible to say "sail away" from the Studio?. Is this Studio by the Thames River?. My humble opinion is that the Orinoco Flow song maybe trivial in this article, but brigs about some themes much less trivial and this fact is excellent. --Fev 00:32, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
I remain unconvinced that any of this Trivia says anything about the Orinoco. --Bejnar 18:39, 10 June 2007 (UTC)
Thankfully, and if i may say so politely, nobody needs to convince you for it to remain there. And neither is your incessant editing of the same helping anybody. If you have so much time on your hands, maybe you should use it for more constructive purposes like contributing more to wikipedia 11:07, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
My contribution to the Wikipedia is not at issue, compliance with policy is. At a minimum trivia should be sourced. If it does contribute, then it needs to be worked into the article like the item about the recreational use of the Orinoco that started out as an unsourced piece of trivia and ended up fully sourced and integrated into the article. --Bejnar 16:27, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
The web site from the Orinoco Recording Studio states: "Built in the mid eighties Orinoco quickly made it’s mark as a top-of-the range studio with Enya’s groundbreaking album “Watermark” (which included the Worldwide hit single Orinoco Flow - named after the Studio). This statement is a little bit confusing, since it says the Worldwide hit single Orinoco Flow was already an enourmous success before was included in the Watermark album and, therefore, introduces several questions without any answer:
  • Was the Orinoco Recording Studio named after the Orinoco River?. If it is so, it is almost irrelevant the fact that Orinoco Flow was named after the Orinoco Recording Studio.
  • Is it likely and appropiate to refer the word flow to a recording studio instead of a big river? --Fev 04:46, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
  • My point is that it is all irrelevant to the article about the river. At a minimum trivia should be sourced. If it does contribute, then it needs to be worked into the appropriate place in the article because it does contribute. Read Wikipedia:Avoid trivia sections. --Bejnar 00:21, 12 August 2007 (UTC)
    • And my point is that different persons have different opinions about what trivia is. For instance, I think this matter is not a trivial idea. A song is an artistic expression, just like a book or novel is: if we do not consider the Olney's book (The river of seven stars) as a trivial point, we could agree the same thing on Enya's song. On the contrary, I think your contributions focused on the fact this is a trivial idea and Enya's Orinoco Flow should be taken away from the Orinoco article for being an outsourced piece of trivia, ARE TRIVIAL CONTRIBUTIONS. However, you are right: it should be included in a different place than the trivia section, because it is not as trivial as it looks. --Fev 21:27, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
I also agree on having Enya's song Orinoco Flow stated as trivia here, in fact I am amazed it's even a topic whether it should be included and that it has been removed. To me it seems like it mostly Bejnar's personal and rather sole opinion to not have it included and his arguments about it' irrelevance and violation of his view of the interpretation of Wikipedia's intent are vague to say the least and would essentially disqualify any trivia about anything if we were to follow his definitions of when a trivia is applicable for a wikipedia article and the very little trivia that would remain would in fact not be what most people regard as trivia. This got to be one of the weirdest Wikipedia removal of a trivia of all-time I have witnessed. The song Orinoco Flow is so famous it's probably much more famous than the river itself and there is absolutely no need for a reliable source considering the combination of the facts that it's firstly a trivia and secondly there are so many obvious references to the river itself both in lyrics, music video and interviews. I vote for having the reference to the river put back (as it seems almost everyone except Bejnar does too) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.105.200.121 (talk) 17:12, 19 January 2011 (UTC)

Jules Verne[edit]

His novel on the Orinoco is an important reference that should be included here. It includes some interesting historic and scientific information from books written by Chaffanjon. I think there are some editions of these books in english. It would be useful to change or improve this references. --Fev 02:22, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

If it is relevant, under history, then find a citation to it. A published article discussing the importance would be perfect. --Bejnar 15:52, 3 June 2007 (UTC)
I don't understand your commentary, since within the references, there is the one linking to the Jules Verne's book. It's importance relays in the fact Verne's information on the Orinoco basin was taken from the books written by Chaffanjon (also included in references below) and brings about the problem at the end of XIX century, regarding the fact that nobody knew which was the real Orinoco and where was located its source. In Verne's novel this is a main theme and the author especulates about a solution which is very close to the real one, discovered by the Franco-Venezuelan Expedition that found its source more than 60 years later. --Fev 23:36, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

Map boundaries[edit]

The map of the Orinoco Basin has a very venezolano perspective on the burder with Guyana. Only maps printed in Venezuela show the border that far east. Jigue 02:21, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

The map does indeed show the eastern Venezuelan border at the full extent of the Venezuelan claim. However, at least it is labeled as the "Zona de Reclamación". But as the claim is not relevant to the hydrology, I think that it is better to have the map than not. This stamp shows the area claimed. It is currently administered by Guyana based on the 1905 treaty between Venezuela and Great Britain, the 1970 expired 12-year moratorium in the Port of Spain protocol and the 1990 semi-official agreement between the Guyanaese Defense Force and the Venezuelan Army. --Bejnar 15:52, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

Yes, but it appears in an English-language Wiki. I can understand using a disclaimer like "Zona de Reclamación" in a Spanish-language one. However, it is not irrelevant that the dispute is between an English-speaking country (Guyana) and a Spanish-speaking one. I think it's better to have a biased map than none at all, but shouldn't there be disclaimer in English, in the caption perhaps?

I don't think that a disclaimer is necessary as the function of the map is to show the Orinoco drainage. If the article were about South American foreign relations, then a disclaimer wuld be appropriate. Anyone interested in the country boundaries should see either Guyana#Boundary with Venezuela or Guayana Esequiba. But, if you really think that it is necessary, go ahead, but keep it short with a link. --Bejnar 20:27, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
  • Since the map is copyleft, anybody may edit it, discarding the part showing the Venezuelan Reclamation Zone. If it is in the map was because the Venezuelan government ordered in the seventies that all the country's maps should include this zone. --Fev 00:02, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

Bibliography (selection) on the Orinoco Basin[edit]

ACOSTA SAIGNES, Miguel. ¿Cómo se descubrió el río Apure?. Revista Nacional de Cultura, Nº 86, pp. 71-78.

ANDRE, Eugène. A Naturalist in the Guianas. With a Preface by Dr. J. Scott Keltie. With thirty-four illustrations and a map. London: Smith, Elder & Co., 1904.

ANDUZE, Pablo J. Shailili-Ko. Descubrimiento de las fuentes del Orinoco. Caracas: Talleres Gráficos Ilustraciones S. A., 1960.

APPUN, Karl Ferdinand. Unter den Tropen. Wanderungen durch Venezuela, am Orinoko, durch Britisch Guyana und am Amazonenstrome in den Jahren 1849-1868. Jena: Hermann Costenoble, 1871, 2 vols.

BINGHAM, Hiram. On the route of Bolívar’s great march: Caracas to Bogotá via Arauca and the Páramo of Pisva. London: The Geographical Journal, oct, 1908, pp. 329-347.

BODART, R. Expedition «Elata», Voyage de S. M. le roi Leopold III de l’Orénoque au Rio Negro. Bruxelles: 1956.

BOUSSINGAULT, J. B. Viajes científicos a los Andes ecuatoriales o Colección de Memorias sobre física, química e historia natural de la Nueva Granada, Ecuador y Venezuela, presentadas á la Academia de Ciencias de Francia por M. Boussingault y por el Sr. Dr. Roulin: traducidas con anuencia de los autores por J. Acosta, y precedidas de algunas nociones de geología por el mismo (1825-31). Paris: Lassère, 1849.

BROWN, J. M. L. The Orinoco: a wasted waterway. New York: Scientific American, nov. 1905, p. 420.

BUENO, Ramón. Apuntes sobre la provincia misionera del Orinoco e indígenas de su territorio. Edición de Monseñor Nicolás E. Navarro. Caracas: Tipografía Americana, 1933.

BURGER, Otto. Reisen eines Naturforschers im Tropischen Südamerika (1896-1897). Leipzig: Real Academia de Ciencias de Prusia, 1900.

CARVAJAL, (fray) Jacinto. Relación del descubrimiento del río Apure hasta su ingreso en el Orinoco. Escrita en 1648 y editada en León (España) en julio de 1882. Editada también en Madrid: Edime, 1956.

CAULIN, Fray Antonio. Historia Corográfica Natural y Evangélica de la Nueva Andalucía. Provincias de Cumaná, Nueva Barcelona, Guayana y vertientes del río Orinoco (1779). Caracas: George Corser, 1841.

CHAFFANJON, Jean. L’Orénoque et le Caura. Relation de voyages exécutés en 1886 et 1887'. Paris, Hachette et Cie., 1889. Edición en castellano: El Orinoco y el Caura. Caracas: Fondo Cultural Orinoco, Editorial Croquis S.R.L., 1986.

CHAFFANJON, Jean. Voyage à travers les Llanos du Caura et aux Sources de l’Orénoque. Paris: 1885-87.

CHAFFANJON, Jean. Voyage aux Sources de l’Orénoque. Paris: Société de Géographie, 1888.

CONTRAMAESTRE TORRES, Alberto. La expedición Franco-Venezolana al alto Orinoco. Caracas, Ministerio de Obras Públicas, Dirección de Cartografía Nacional, s.f. (c. 1962).

DE LEON, Rafael y RODRIGUEZ DIAZ, Alberto J. El Orinoco aprovechado y recorrido. Caracas: Corporación Venezolana de Guayana. Ministerio de Obras Públicas, Talleres Gráficos Armitano, 1976.

DE LEON, Rafael, RODRIGUEZ DIAZ, Alberto J. y PAZ-CASTILLO, Fernando. Estudios Río Orinoco. Esbozo para un Plan Director Preliminar. Documento de Trabajo, Caracas: M.O.P./C.V.G./I.N.C. (Ministerio de Obras Públicas, Corporación Venezolana de Guayana, Instituto Nacional de Canalizaciones), 1974.

DUNSTERVILLE, G. C. K. Orquídeas y Bromeliáceas y un viaje a Guayana. Caracas: Revista Shell Nº 20, 1956, pp. 41-43.

ERBACH-ERBACH, (E. Graf zu). Im Delta des Orinoko. Jahresb. IX und X, Württemberg Ver. Handelsgeographie, 1892.

ERNST, Adolfo. Caucho y Gutapercha de Venezuela. Caracas: Boletín del Ministerio de Obras Públicas, Nº 66, 1.4. 1891.

ERNST, Adolfo. Roraima (Informe sobre la ascensión hecha por Everard im Thurm). Caracas: La Opinión Nacional, " 27.5. 1885, Nº 4746.

FREILE, Alfonso J. El Delta del Orinoco. Caracas: Revista Venezolana de Geografía, Nº 5, 1963.

FUNDACION BIGOTT. Orinoco Imaginario. Caracas: Edición especial de la Revista Bigott, Nº 45, abril-mayo-junio 1998, 136 pp.

GALLEGOS, Rómulo. La Trepadora. Caracas, 1925. Versión al italiano de Michele Castelli: La Rampicante. Caracas: Gráficas La Bodoniana, s. f., c. 1973.

GAZSO, Gabriel. La Gran Sabana. Caracas: Edit. Aurora, s.f. (c. 1996). English and German editions.

GHEERBRANT, Alain. La expedición Orinoco-Amazonas. Buenos Aires: Talleres Gráficos Lidot, 1955.

GOERING, Anton. Von Tropischen Tieflande zum ewigen Schnee. Eine malerische Schilderung des schönsten Tropenlandes Venezuela. In Wort und Bild von A. Goering. Leipzig: Adalbert Fischer’s Verlag, s. f. (c. 1892). Existe traducción reciente al castellano.

GOMEZ PICON, Rafael. Orinoco, río de libertad. Interpretación geográfica, histórica, social y económica desde el Descubrimiento hasta nuestros días. Madrid. Editorial Afrodisio Aguado, S.A., 1953.

GUMILLA, (Padre) José. El Orinoco ilustrado y defendido. Historia natural, civil y geográfica de este gran río y de sus caudalosas vertientes. Escrito en 1731. Ediciones posteriores: 1745, 1791 y 1882. Versión francesa, 1758. Caracas: Academia Nacional de la Historia, Fuentes para la Historia Colonial de Venezuela, Nº 68, 1963.

HAMILTON RICE, A. The Río Negro, the Casiquiare canal and the upper Orinoco. The Geographical Journal, vol. LVIII, Nº 5, pp. 321-344, 1921.

HETTNER, Alfred. Venezuela nach den Forschungen von W. Sievers. Leipzig: 1897.

HITCHCOCK, Charles B. La región Orinoco-Ventuari, Venezuela; relatos de la expedición Phelps al Cerro Yaví. Caracas: Ministerio de Educación Nacional, Dirección de Cultura. Imprenta El Compás, 1948, 51 pp. (Extracto del Boletín de la Sociedad Venezolana de Ciencias Naturales, Tomo XII, Nº 72.

HUBER, Otto. Chimantá, Escudo de Guayana, Venezuela. Caracas: Edit. Ex Libris, 1992

HUMBOLDT, Alejandro y BONPLAND, A. Viaje a las regiones equinocciales del Nuevo Continente (1799-1804). Caracas: Ediciones del Ministerio de Educación, Dirección de Cultura y Bellas Artes. 5 tomos, 1956. La primera edición en francés se publicó entre 1808 y 1834.

JAHN, Alfredo. Contribución a la hidrografía del Orinoco y del río Negro. Caracas: Anales de la Universidad Central de Venezuela, Tomo X, Nº 2, pp. 181-230, 1909.

KOCH GRÜNBERG, Theodor. Del Roraima al Orinoco (1911-1913). Caracas: Ediciones del Banco Central de Venezuela, Talleres Gráficos Armitano, 3 tomos, 1979-81.

LEVEL, Andrés Eusebio. Informe sobre el alto, central y bajo Orinoco en 1847. Caracas: Imprenta de Diego Campbell, 1850.

MAGUIRE, Bassett y PHELPS, Kathereen Deeri de. Botánica de las expediciones Phelps en la Guayana Venezolana. Boletín de la Sociedad Venezolana de Ciencias Naturales, Nº 78. Caracas: 1951, pp. 7-19.

MATALLANA, Fray Baltasar de. La flora y la fauna en la medicina indígena Taurepán. Caracas: Boletín de la Sociedad Venezolana de Ciencias Naturales, Nº 33, 1938, pp. 331-34.

MATTEI MULLER, Marie-Claire y HENLEY, Paul. Wapa. La comercialización de la Artesanía indígena y su innovación artística: el caso de la cestería Panare. Presentación de Argenis Gamboa. Caracas: Litografía Tecnocolor, 1978.

MORISSE, Lucien. Excursion dans l’Eldorado (El Callao). Paris: E. Flammarion, Association d’Imprimeurs, 1904.

MOSQUEIRA MANZO, J. A. Las tortugas del Orinoco. Caracas: Tercera Conferencia Interamericana de Agricultura, 1945.

NUÑEZ, Enrique Bernardo. Cubagua, novela. Orinoco (capítulo de una historia de este río). Caracas: Ministerio de Educación, Dirección de Cultura, 1947 (3ª edic.), 143 pp.

OLNEY, Fred Arthur: The River of Seven Stars (1885). New York, Harper & Brothers, 1924.

PASSARGE, Sigfried. Bericht über eine Reise in venezolanischen Guyana. Berlin: Zeitschrift der Gessellschaft für Erdkunde zu Berlin, (Boletín de la Sociedad de Geografía de Berlín), Nº 1, ene. 1903, pp. 5-43.

PATDUILLARD, N. et GAILLARD, A. Champignons du Venezuela et principalement de la region du haut-Orenoque. Recoltes en 1887 par M. A. Gaillard. Lons-le Saunier (Francia): 1889.

PHELPS, William. Una guía de las aves de Venezuela, por William H. Phelps y Rodolphe Meyer de Schauensee. Caracas: Gráficas Armitano, 1979, 484 p., ilustr.

RALEIGH, (Sir) Walter. The discovery of the large, rich and beautiful empire of Guaiana, with a relation of the great and golden city of Manoa (which the Spaniards call El Dorado) and the provinces of Emaria, Arromaia, Amapaia and other countries with their rivers adjoining. Performed in the year 1595. London: 1596. Reimpreso con el título The discovery of the large, rich and beautiful empire of Guaiana, performed in the year 1595. Editado por H. Schomburg, London: Hakluyt Society, 1848. Existe traducción al castellano: El descubrimiento del grande, rico y bello imperio de Guayana (1495). Caracas: Edics. Juvenal Herrera, 1986.

RAMO, Cristina y AYARZAGUENA, José. Fauna of the Venezuelan Llanos. Caracas: Cuadernos LAGOVEN, 1985.

RATZEL, Friedrich. Philipp von Hutten. Leipzig: Allgemeine deutsche Biographie, s.f. (cit. por SANCHEZ, M. S., tomo I, 478)

REINDL, Josef. Die Schwarzen Flüsse Südamerikas. Hydrographische Studie auf Geologisch-Orographischer, Physicalischer und Biologischer Grundlage. München: Theodor Ackermann, 1903.

RITTER, Carl. Ein Blick auf die vegetation der Cordilleren in Venezuela. Berlin: Monatsb. Ges. Erdkunde, ser. 2, t. VIII, pp. 152-6, 1851.

RIVERO, (Padre) Juan. Historia de las Misiones de los Llanos de Casanare y los ríos Orinoco y Meta. Escrita el año de 1736. Bogotá: Silvestre y Cía, 1883.

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Non sourced, only loosely related, trivia[edit]

  • The song "Orinoco Flow" by Irish singer Enya is often mistakingly thought to be named after the Orinoco, but in fact it was named after the studio in which it was recorded.
  • The Orinoco Recording Studios was named after the Orinoco River.
  • One of the Runabouts on Star Trek: Deep Space Nine was named after the Orinoco river. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Bejnar (talkcontribs) 18:55, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

Orinoco's Length - Guaviare River[edit]

Guaviarerivermap.png

Would the Orinoco be considered longer if The Guaviare River was considered as its source? crazy

Merger proposal[edit]

I propose that Orinoco River Crossing be merged into Orinoco. The article is a stub, is already tagged with notability, poorly sourced, and most likely doesn't need it's own article. SarahStierch (talk) 04:29, 23 April 2013 (UTC)

  • Oppose - it's a notable enough subject for a stand alone article, and merging it into this article would make finding the information and its categorisation awkward. - The Bushranger One ping only 23:43, 29 May 2013 (UTC)
  • A one line entry in the Orinoco article might be appropriate. The name is poor, it sounds like a ferry. Better is "Orinoco Powerline Crossing". --Bejnar (talk) 17:14, 28 May 2014 (UTC)