Talk:Orion (constellation)

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Bellatrix, left or right shoulder?[edit]

Regarding:

"Bellatrix serves as Orion's left shoulder."

Wouldn't it be more natural to use the perspective of the viewer and not Orion? That is, right shoulder instead of left shoulder? --Mortense (talk) 21:40, 19 February 2013 (UTC)

Equally the use of East-West throughout astronomy articles is confusing for the layman if the maps themselves never show that East-West is reversed as to how we expect Macgroover (talk) 07:43, 23 January 2014 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 23 May 2014[edit]

Please change "By extending the line of the Belt southwestward, Sirius (α CMa) can be found; northeastward, Aldebaran (α Tau). A line westward across the two shoulders indicates the direction of Procyon (α CMi)." to "By extending the line of the Belt southeastward, Sirius (α CMa) can be found; northweastward, Aldebaran (α Tau). A line eastward across the two shoulders indicates the direction of Procyon (α CMi).

Baja Tom (talk) 18:28, 23 May 2014 (UTC)

Yes check.svg Done by PlanetStar (talk · contribs) at 04:28, 24 May 2014 (UTC). Mz7 (talk) 17:28, 24 May 2014 (UTC)

== Osiris the man-god of rebirth/reincarnation ==

I corrected Osiris the sun-god to... The stars of Orion were associated with Osiris, the man-god of rebirth/reincarnation and the afterlife, by the ancient Egyptians. - Albert Einstein 98.249.252.238 (talk) 15:58, 2 November 2014 (UTC)

Orion consists of 7 stars with 4 being the shoulders and feet + 3 stars of Orion's Belt[edit]

I added this most basic description that was missing... Orion consists of 7 stars with 4 being 'the shoulders and feet' while the three stars in the middle of the constellation form a unique asterism known as Orion's belt. - Albert Einstein 98.249.252.238 (talk) 16:05, 2 November 2014 (UTC)

The 7 stars of Orion are...[edit]

I added this introduction before the list of the 7 stars: The 7 stars of Orion are... - Albert Einstein 98.249.252.238 (talk) 16:18, 2 November 2014 (UTC)

The IP above is a now blocked sock of User:Brad Watson, Miami. Dougweller (talk) 16:44, 4 November 2014 (UTC)

Contagious magic[edit]

@A. Parrot: - should this really be in the article? Dougweller (talk) 15:18, 3 November 2014 (UTC)

It wasn't wrong, exactly, but it's pretty tangential. Orion appears in that passage of the Pyramid Texts (PT 273–274, the "Cannibal Hymn") but isn't central to it. So I deleted that part. To cover Orion's significance in Egypt more extensively, I used a different source and rewrote most of the Egypt-related text.
The Africa section consists of only a sentence, devoted to Egypt alone and going off on another tangent, this time the Osiris myth. I take no position on whether Egypt should be in the Ancient Near East section, the Africa section, or a section of its own, but obviously it should be covered in only one place. A. Parrot (talk) 19:11, 3 November 2014 (UTC)

Ancient Egypt[edit]

An editor at the IP address 76.201.60.184 keeps restoring text about Orion's significance in Egypt that I replaced a few days ago: "The stars of Orion were associated with Osiris, the sun-god of rebirth and the afterlife, by the ancient Egyptians." The text I added to this page a few days ago says Orion was connected with Osiris, so there's no reason for the IP to keep adding back the text it replaced unless he or she really thinks Osiris is a sun god. That claim is based on the work of Donald Alexander Mackenzie, who is a seriously outdated source on Egyptian religion. The The Oxford Guide: Essential Guide to Egyptian Mythology,, which is cited in the article and is a reliable source, does not say Osiris is a sun god and doesn't say much about Osiris' connection with Orion. Nor does any current RS say Osiris was essentially a sun god. He had solar connections because of his nightly union with Ra in the underworld, but that's not the same thing. Conceptions of God in Egypt by Erik Hornung says at one point "…how many gods and goddesses may be embodied in the form of a lion—or in the sun, in which one may adore almost any of the great deities, including even Osiris!" (p. 126). That clearly implies that Osiris had solar connections but they were far from central to his character. A. Parrot (talk) 20:07, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

Thanks. It's pretty clear that the IP didn't check the sources, and why the IP would think a deadlink to a school site, which in any case would fail WP:RS, should be replaced is a bit puzzling. The 4th source is just a personal website and thus fails WP:RS. The only good source, as you say, is Redford who doesn't say that. Dougweller (talk) 21:52, 5 November 2014 (UTC)
The IP is edit warring to readd the material, and doesn't seem to acknowledge any messages left for them, and doesn't seem interested in engaging in collaboration. Ian.thomson (talk) 18:08, 7 November 2014 (UTC)
Agreed. As I look into it deeper, there is slight support for the belief that Osiris was originally solar, in a hypothesis that Wolfhart Westendorf put forward in the 1970s. It leans heavily on a speculative etymology for Osiris' name that would connect him with the Eye of Ra, a solar goddess. As Westendorf himself admitted, this etymology would imply that Osiris was originally one of the Eye of Ra-related solar goddesses and changed sex sometime before his first appearance in texts. I know about this hypothesis only because J. Gwyn Griffiths—who also wrote the article on Osiris in the Oxford Essential Guide—spends pages 99 to 106 of The Origins of Osiris and His Cult (1980) taking it apart. I've never seen a more recent source mention it. Griffiths concluded that Osiris was originally a funerary god like Anubis and acquired wider importance through his link with the dead king. More recent sources either accept Griffiths' argument (e.g., [1], pp. 120–123) or say Osiris started as a fertility god (as in Wilkinson 2003, p. 118, or Religion and Magic in Ancient Egypt, 2002, by Rosalie David, p. 157).
In any case, Osiris' central traits in recorded history concerned the underworld, kingship, the afterlife, and agricultural fertility. He did develop solar connections, but they weren't fundamental, as Wilkinson 2003 says on page 120:

"[Osiris] came to be regarded not only as the counterpart of Re in the netherworld, but in some cases as the sun god's own body—so that Osiris and Re came to be considered as representing the body and soul, respectively, of a single great god. The solar cycle was thus imagined as the ba of Re descending into the underworld to unite with Osiris as his own corpse. Nevertheless, Osiris and Re maintained independent characteristics, identities, and realms. The fusion of the two gods was mainly a product of New Kingdom theological expression in specific context and Egyptian theology never totally overcame the dichotomy implicit in the idea of Re as lord of the heavens and Osiris as lord of the underworld."

Mackenzie, in contrast, was not an Egyptologist and not as qualified as any of the people I've just mentioned. Moreover, Egyptological thinking about religion underwent a dramatic change from the late 1940s to the 1970s that threw out or greatly modified many of the old assumptions about Egyptian religion (described in The Gods of Egypt, 2001, by Claude Traunecker, pp. 10–11). Wikipedians should therefore use extreme caution when citing any discussion of Egyptian religion in sources from before World War II, even when produced by the most highly qualified Egyptologists of the era, which Mackenzie was not. The IP editor really doesn't have grounds to claim Mackenzie is a reliable source. A. Parrot (talk) 19:26, 7 November 2014 (UTC)
*sigh*, it doesn't seem that 76.201.60.184 cares at all. AcidSnow (talk) 03:28, 16 November 2014 (UTC)
Yeah. He's got a singular devotion to pushing the idea that Hayk, Osiris, Orion, and Jesus are all somehow connected, and except for a small period of conversation with Doug, he either isn't interested or has given up. If he was any more WP:NOTHERE, he'd be on another site instead. Ian.thomson (talk) 03:34, 16 November 2014 (UTC)
Not only has he broken WP:EDITWAR, but also PERSONALATRACK, WP:GOODFAITH, WP:CIVILITY, etc. He is clearly WP:NOTHERE. Now he is claim that I have "DONT Read what I wrote". There's nothing we can do for this sinking ship. AcidSnow (talk) 03:42, 16 November 2014 (UTC)
A community ban would at least allow us to ignore 3rr with him. Ian.thomson (talk) 03:47, 16 November 2014 (UTC)
I've been wondering if this is WP:Long-term abuse/Ararat arev, who edited from Los Angeles-area addresses and was interested in Orion and Hayk. I only know Ararat arev by reputation, but you could ask Doug if the behavior seems familiar. And Ararat arev is long since banned. A. Parrot (talk) 03:56, 16 November 2014 (UTC)

────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────

Close enough for me, let's just go on ahead and say that it's him. Hell, even if someone where to present good evidence it wasn't him (like Ararat arev's obituary or something), I'd be willing to apply WP:IAR to facts just to get this over with. Ian.thomson (talk) 04:02, 16 November 2014 (UTC)
Skimming armenianhighland.com—the website where, according to the LTA page, Ararat arev gets (or writes) his ideas—I did find stuff connecting Armenia and Orion with Egyptian solar religion as well as Osiris. And other stuff connecting Christianity with Mithras, whom 66.214.143.68 (obviously the same person as 76.201.60.184) brought up on the Hayk page. Looks probable to me. A. Parrot (talk) 04:17, 16 November 2014 (UTC)
I'm in the middle of the weekly Dungeons & Dragons game, or I'd file an SPI myself. Once we do that, we can ignore 3RR with 76.201.60.184. Also relevant (though old) are Special:Contributions/75.51.166.134, Special:Contributions/75.51.160.127, and Special:Contributions/75.51.164.182. If it's not him, I'll eat my chainmail coif. Ian.thomson (talk) 04:29, 16 November 2014 (UTC)
Per a request at WP:AN3 (permalink) I have put indefinite semiprotection on the article. It would make sense if this long-term IP who keeps reverting the article is in fact Ararat arev. It seems like a very determined IP has been trying to change the article the same way for three years or more. That would fit with the past behavior of Ararat arev. If anyone has an interest in updating the SPI records or the LTA record that would be helpful. EdJohnston (talk) 04:48, 16 November 2014 (UTC)
I will do it shortly. AcidSnow (talk)
AcidSnow I should have thought of this. The friendly contact with me on my talk page is typical of Ararat arev. Thanks Ed. Dougweller (talk) 10:41, 16 November 2014 (UTC)
Its done, if you guys need more detail I am free to add more. AcidSnow (talk) 17:30, 16 November 2014 (UTC)

────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────Protected this page for 3 days, also Ra. To busy right now on some other Wikipedia stuff to do much more. Dougweller (talk) 10:09, 19 November 2014 (UTC)

  • Whether 76.201.60.184 is Ararat arev or not, it is clearly a persistently disruptive editor who has used a number of IP addresses over a long period, so I have blocked the IP address. The editor who uses the pseudonym "JamesBWatson" (talk) 10:48, 19 November 2014 (UTC)
I guess this is the same person now editing at Sirius? Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 02:41, 21 November 2014 (UTC)
Cas Liber, I've semi-protected that and Heliacal rising but it's been suggested on my talk page range blocks might be in order. I referred the editor to our guidance that says "ask on the Administrators' noticeboard or on IRC." Dougweller (talk) 08:24, 21 November 2014 (UTC)
Just protected Egyptian mythology. Dougweller (talk) 08:26, 21 November 2014 (UTC)