Talk:Orthodox Autocephalous Church of Albania

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Picture of the Worcester church[edit]

I don't want to make this move myself, but I believe it's wrong to keep the Worcester church picture in the article because that parish pertains to the Orthodox Church of America, not to the Orthodox CHurch of Albania therefore has nothingt to do with the article. sulmues (talk) 16:52, 29 December 2009 (UTC)

Since no one cared, I got bold and removed the image. The church of Worcester, MA is part of the Orthodox Church of America, not Orthodox Church of Albania.sulmues (talk) --Sulmues 16:02, 18 January 2010 (UTC)

History[edit]

I'd like to thank alexikoua for his nice edits. Made some changes to improve the article:

1. Islam entered in Albania after the Turkish invasion. 2. The majority of muslims has been achieved only in the XIXth century after the Tanzimat reforms. 3. Since St. Paul preached in Durres, Christianity started already in the 1st century, not in the IVth: in the IVth century it became official.

Hope this clarifies my changes. sulmues (talk:sulmues)--Sulmues 16:25, 29 December 2009 (UTC)

Title change[edit]

Can someone with the relevant rights change the title of this article from "Albanian Orthodox Church" to "Orthodox Autocephalous Church of Albania" and make the old title redirect here?

I just saw an interview of Anastasios on TV where he corrected the journalist (Anna Panagiotarea) who called the Church as "Albanian Orthodox Church" saying there is a difference and the Church should be called "Church of Albania" instead of "Albanian Church".

Who appointed him[edit]

Is the Church is Autocephalous how come someone else--a Greek no less--appointed a Greek? Is this is mistake or they appointed from outside?

See history: It was the Albanian Government that approved, i.e. Berisha.sulmues talk--Sulmues 17:36, 5 January 2010 (UTC)

Language[edit]

Also the use of the (Greek) language in the rituals has been seen as a threat to Albanian ethnic identity by Albanian nationalists.

The above part of the text is either a hardline Greek nationalistic statement, or some misunderstanding. There is a tradition of many centuries that Christian Orthodox Churches use the language of the local people. For example the Russian Orthodox Church uses Russian language, the Serbian Orthodox Church uses Serbian languages, the Bulgarian Orthodox Church uses Bulgarian language, etc. So the most natural thing is that all Albanians would want to have the service in Albanian. People that want such natural and self understanding things shall not be called nationalists. I cannot imagine how Orthodox Christians in Russia, Serbia, Bulgaria, Armenia, etc. would like to listen to Greek language instead to their own, even in one single church. Should we call them nationalists too? SS

I am afraid you are jumping to the wrong conclusions. Greek is only used during worship in Albania, in places where the local church membership is comprised predominantly by ethnic Greeks (there are many such cities and villages in the south of Albania). And even then, the greek language is not used on its own but in conjunction with Albanian. But there exist some ethnic Albanian hardliners who object even to this! Perhaps the article should be reworded to explain this situation better. Contributor175 15:20, 23 March 2006 (UTC)


Yes, it definitely needs to be reworded, since most parishes in Albania do not use Greek in their services, but use Albanian. It might have been a problem before the Second World War, but it has not been an obstacle to the revival of the church. A very few parishes in the south, near the Greek border, use Greek, and one or two use Aromanian (Vlach), but most use Albanian. Mëshiro o Zot! SteveH 14:20, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

I have edited the article and added some new material. It still needs a lot of work, however. I will try to persuade Fr Luke Veronis, who was a missionary in Albania for many years, to take a look at it. SteveH 15:08, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

  • The above is nonsense. "There is a tradition of many centuries that Christian Orthodox Churches use the language of the local people", LOL. The Arab Orthodox Churches such as the Greek Orthodox Church of Antioch use and always have used Greek in their worship (although I think that in recent years some Arabic has been introduced into the liturgy). You also mention Russia, Serbia and Bulgaria. Well, I bet it'll come to no surprise to you that they don't use the vernacular either but use Church Slavonic which is incomprehensible to modern Slavs.--Ploutarchos 07:08, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

Date of Autocephaly[edit]

This article is not correct; the Albanian Orthodox Autocephalous Church was established in 1922, not in 1937. It might have been recognized in 1937 but that doesn't mean that is when it was founded (sort of like saying that the US was founded when the British recognized it!).

Fixed and referenced user:sulmues--Sulmues 16:32, 28 December 2009 (UTC)

Missiologist?[edit]

Archbishop Anastasios was the greatest Orthodox missiologist of his time...

Does anyone know if this is a real word? I for one,have never heard it before and I couldn't find it in either of the two dictionaries i searched.I think it must be some sort of vandalism but i thought i'd ask first...--Padem 22:33, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

Church of Saranda[edit]

Sorry but Saranda dows not infact have a Greek majority:

Here is a recent map of the ethnicities of Albania from T.J. Winnifrith book 'BadLands-Borderlands: A history of southern Albania/Northern Epirus

[[Image:Example.jpg]http://img413.imageshack.us/img413/3426/terminal177vw6.jpg]

Of this issue, journalist for the ShqiptareOrthodox/AlbanianOrthodox Foti Cici writes in his article Gjuha dhe simbolet/Language and Symbolism:

shqiptarët ortodoksë të Sarandës, të cilët janë të detyruar të ndjekin shërbesat në greqishte, në një kishë madhështore të ndërtuar me investimet e Bankës së Greqisë. Shumë prej shqiptarëve janë larguar nga kisha, si e vetmja formë reagimi ndaj situatës së sotme ndërkonfliktuale.

translation:

The Albanian Orthodox of Saranda, of which are forced to follow liturgy in Greek, of a cathedral built by the investment of the Bank of Greece. Many of the Albanians have distanced themselves from this church, the only form of settlement to situation under conflict today.

This article is the source for the comment that in Saranda, liturgy in Albanian is not allowed in the main church of the city. Not in the city itself, just in that particular church. Which happens to be the biggest one in the city.

I apologize for the awkwardness of the post, I have not yet adjusted to wiki.

Tpilkati 22:36, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

As far as I know, that church was paid for by Greeks in Greece for the Greek minority in Albania and they are allowing the Albanians to use and hear the liturgy in the same way their ancestors have done for centuries (in Greek language). Beggars can't be choosers, if Albanian nationalists (most of whom are not even Orthodox) want to have their own language in every church church, they should pay for them themselves.--

Beggars cant be choosers ???? The beggars are the very small greek community in Saranda. Ploutarchos 07:08, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

or they should just close it. if they want to play games, so be it.

Numbers[edit]

What is the real number of Orthodox Christians in Albania now, given the fact that abb half of this community emigrated after 1990? Can anyone supply some data about that? Thank you.


All religions migrated equally. Are you hinting that Albanian Orthodox = Greek? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 141.151.83.225 (talk) 20:27, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

need more pics[edit]

Please,anyone, upload some pictures so we can use them on here.Thank you.--Taulant23 (talk) 11:09, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

Suggested move[edit]

User:Taulant23 has suggested moving this page to Orthodox Autocephalous Church of Albania. Any objections? Fut.Perf. 11:25, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

I think the move was pointless. "Albanian Orthodox Church" is shorter, much more common (in Google results at least), and matches Bulgarian Orthodox Church, Polish Orthodox Church, Romanian Orthodox Church, Russian Orthodox Church, Serbian Orthodox Church... I understand that nevertheless the current title may be the full official name and since I'm unaware of any possible POV connotations either title could possibly have (power struggle between Orthodox Christianity and Islam for Albanian national religion status maybe?), I'd suggest moving it back.--Dexippus (talk) 15:47, 18 April 2008 (UTC)
Under WP:NAME, the article name should reflect the most widely used english version, not the most "correct" name. A google test reveals 13,000 hits for the old name against 417 for the new one. I agree it should be reverted back, however it will need more of a consensus and admin assistance. AndrewRT(Talk) 21:41, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

20 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.124.76.36 (talk) 04:41, 18 January 2009 (UTC)

I can see both of you points (both Taulant's and AndrewRT's), and I tend to Symbol declined.svg Disagree for the merge for another reason other than Andrew's: Orthodoxy in Albania is not limited to the Orthodox Autocephalous Church of Albania. There is an Orthodox Church of Albania separate from the main one and resides in Elbasan (priest Marku), this is still not reflected in Wikipedia. This version can be as it is just has to point more consistently to the Orthodox Autocephalous Church of Albania and possibly to the "alternative" church of Elbasan. sulmues User talk:sulmues --Sulmues 17:29, 5 January 2010 (UTC)

Proposal to merge Orthodoxy in Albania to this article[edit]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.
The result was merge Orthodoxy in Albania into Orthodox Autocephalous Church of Albania. -- Uncle Dick (talk) 22:27, 11 September 2010 (UTC)

The article of the Church should be the main article. Orthodoxy in Albania seems to be oriented more on the history, but in anyway would best fit here. Also duplication and inconsistencies of information would be reduced, and hopefully, the joint of efforts would bring higher quality to the article, which is necessary since both articles currently are marked as unreferenced.

Eventually, some parts of the Orthodoxy in Albania would be appropriate for Religion in Albania. Kpant (talk) 22:32, 18 June 2009 (UTC)

  • Support: Both articles are mainly dealing with Orthodox in Albania after 1921 (after the creation of the Albanian state), I see no reason keeping 2 articles with the same content.Alexikoua (talk) 22:42, 1 February 2010 (UTC)
  • Support. These two articles are essentially duplicates, and there is no evidence that Orthodoxy exists in Albania in any significant form outside of the Orthodox Autocephalous Church of Albania. Uncle Dick (talk) 22:21, 10 August 2010 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.


Unreferenced paragraph - to be changed or removed[edit]

Archbishop Anastasios insisted from the start that the church that was to be revived would be an Albanian Church, but has greatly increased Greek influence in the church...

In this paragraph, the intention of the Archbishop Anastasios for reviving an Albanian church is questioned, which seems to be in contradiction to the reality, for example to the fact that he established a Synod of Albanian bishops. Unless references are added to this paragraph, it should be removed or modified adequately. Kpant (talk) 23:35, 18 June 2009 (UTC)

Another thing which seems tendentious is this sentence Liturgical books and other literature were produced in the Albanian language between between 1910 and the 1940s. There are very few Albanian publications after his enthronement, while the Orthodox Albanians continue to use the New Testament published by the British & Foreign Bible Society in 1879. Not only the source of information is unknown, but the presentation itself leaves the impression that the church was doing better before the coming of Anastasios. Which is ridiculous - as before his coming there was practically no church life. Kpant (talk) 18:07, 19 June 2009 (UTC)

Name of the bishop of Gjirokastër[edit]

The question of the proper name to use for the bishop of Gjirokastër has arisen. sulmues points to Wikipedia:Biographies_of_living_persons#Public_figures as a standard. The only web based, non-Wikipedia related reference to the man in the English language that I have found is on YouTube, "Orthodox Autoc. Church of Alb", which uses "Demetrious Sinaiti". It turns out that Δημήτριος is his church name (not birth name), and that he is known as "Demetrious of Sinai" or "Demetrios of Sinai", ref: "Συμφωνία για Πρωτόκολλο Συνεργασίας των Πανεπιστημίων Ιωαννίνων" and "Μητροπολίτης Αργυροκάστρου ο Δημήτριος". As Greek is the official language of the Orthodox Autocephalous Church of Albania, it seems appropriate to use that form rather than the translation into Albanian. He is called "of Sinai", since that is the diocese from which he came in 1991 when he went to Gjirokastër. Μάλιστα η συζήτηση επεκτάθηκε και ο Επίσκοπος, απαντώντας σε σχετικές ερωτήσεις, έδωσε απαντήσεις σε θέματα που αφορούν στη Μονή Σινά, από την οποία προέρχεται και όπου ανήκε πριν εκλεγεί Μητροπολίτης Αργυροκάστρου. ref: "Συμφωνία για Πρωτόκολλο Συνεργασίας των Πανεπιστημίων Ιωαννίνων". Use Google translate for a close approximation. --Bejnar (talk) 04:10, 11 April 2010 (UTC)

Greek is not the official language of the Orthodox Church of Albania, where did you get that? ----Sulmues Let's talk 12:28, 20 April 2010 (UTC)

The official site of this church says that his name is Demetrious. I believe that's enough. Moreover someone that was born out of Albanian (like him) doesn't mean that his name has to change by entering this country...Alexikoua (talk) 14:13, 20 April 2010 (UTC)

So was he born in Greece? Did you mean that he was born out of Albania? --Sulmues Let's talk 14:25, 20 April 2010 (UTC)

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Question regarding statement: "The Orthodox people of Albania were members of the Archbishopric of Ohrid"[edit]

According to this edit (and a similar edit on another page), the statement is made that Orthodox Albanians (presumably all) were part of the Archbishopric of Ohrid. The quoted reference from Schmitt says: "The Orthodox Albanians ...religiously ... were members of the church that was officially recognized by the Ottoman state.... The Archbishopric of Ohrid." However, when I searched the reference in Schmitt's book Religion und Kultur im albanischsprachigen Südosteuropa, I could not find a basis for this reference. When I typed in archbishopric of ohrid orthodox albanians as search terms, this is what I got from p. 25 which is what is cited here: Moreover, the Archbishopric of Ohrid, to which all Orthodox Albanian cities belonged to ecclesiastically [...] ([3]) Am I wrong to assume that the source was misquoted or did the page actually mention the term Orthodox Albanians above or below the section books.google shows? Or are we assuming that all Orthodox Albanians lived in cities?--Gaius Claudius Nero (talk) 04:58, 10 January 2012 (UTC)

I apologize for forgetting to answer your question: "Am I wrong to assume that the source was misquoted or did the page actually mention the term Orthodox Albanians above or below the section books.google shows?" Yes, you are wrong to assume that the source was misquoted because the the section books.google shows actually mention the term "Orthodox Albanians".--Antidiskriminator (talk) 10:20, 11 January 2012 (UTC)
The whole page 25 is available online. Because of copyright issue it is not allowed to present the whole sections of the text from sources. Please read a paragraph which explains that "Archbishopric of Ohrid with its ecclesiastical territory ..... encompasing Serbian, Macedonian, Greek and Albanian lands ... was ... recognized officially by the Ottomans". Then read the quoted text. --Antidiskriminator (talk) 09:25, 10 January 2012 (UTC)
I'm not sure what Nero's issue is with these statements. The conceptual difference between "Albanians" and "Albanian cities"? Well, it factually boils down to pretty much the same thing. Of course, nothing in the sources suggests that church organization in the countryside would have differed from that in the cities. However, I do think the statement about people being "members of the Archbishopric" is poorly worded. Conceptually, people aren't supposed to be "members" of archbishoprics. Archbishoprics have ecclesiastical jurisdiction over other parts of church organization, such as bishoprics and parishes. In this sense, the jurisdiction of Ohrid would have covered all of the orthodox church in the Albanian lands. That's what the source says, and that's what the article was trying to say. Fut.Perf. 12:35, 10 January 2012 (UTC)
Schmitt makes distinctions between urban areas and non-urban, highland areas in his book on Skanderbeg ([4]) although that's only one point. There were also many (35-40 thousand [5]) Albanians (most of them of the Byzantine rite even today) living in Italy and AFAIK, the Archbishopric did not have any churches in Italy. Anyway, I realize that I'm moving into OR territory so I will not expand too much. The main reason I asked was because I have limited access to the page in question (Page 25 is not part of this book review) and what I found did not seem to correspond with what was quoted. If it is possible, I would ask for a rewording of the sentence to make clear that the Albanian lands came under the jurisdiction of the Archbishopric along with Ottoman conquest (which is what seems to be reported), instead of saying that the Orthodox Albanians were members of that Archbishopric. Also, from what I can see, the page in question is part of Dritan Egro's dissertation thesis for Bilkent Univeristy ([6] [7]) and he should be appropriately cited.--Gaius Claudius Nero (talk) 06:08, 11 January 2012 (UTC)
The source says "The Orthodox Albanians ...religiously ... were members of the church that was officially recognized by the Ottoman state." There is an institution of Church membership. This term is extensively used on wikipedia. There are lot of works about church membership (817,000 Google Book Search hits. I think we should stick to the source because there is obviously nothing wrong with church membership expression.
If you read rest of the text on the page 26 you will better understand the reason for connecting Ohrid Archbishopric with Orthodox people from Albania, not with the land or churches. "The Archbishopric also had a task of collecting the taxes from Orthodox Albanians.." --Antidiskriminator (talk) 10:04, 11 January 2012 (UTC)
Just because they were collecting taxes does not mean that they were members of that Archbishopric. The Catholic Albanians in Kosovo had to pay taxes to the Serbian Patriarch in the 17th century [8] but that doesn't mean they were members of the Patriarchate. The membership you speak of is a modern concept whereas more contemporary concepts talk of the faithful as a "flock" led by the priests, bishops, etc. (the Catholic bishop of Nikopol (whose flock, in Bulgaria, was also at risk) [9]) instead of members. It does not seem right that an ordinary person is a member of an Archbishopric, although he can be a member of a church. Also, as far as I can tell, the Theopedia article deals with church membership mainly in an Evangelical sense. Anyway, the change I'm asking for is not major and Fut.Perf also mentioned potential problems with saying that individuals were members of an Archbishopric. Also, from what I can tell, pg.25 says Albanian cities were ecclesiastic members of the Archbishopric. Of course, I only have limited acces to pg. 25, so if you don't mind, could you provide the sentence where it says "Orthodox Albanians" in Dritan Egro's work on pg. 25?--Gaius Claudius Nero (talk) 02:57, 12 January 2012 (UTC)
Church membership affiliates an individual believer with a specific local congregation. I explained that there is no problem with church membership which is exactly the expression the source uses. The Church membership if not a modern concept. It is exactly the opposite, there is a general collapse of the idea of church membership in modern times. Many modern, independent churches reject the idea of membership, believing it to be an unnecessary.
Can you please clarify what is exactly a minor change you are asking?--Antidiskriminator (talk) 08:40, 12 January 2012 (UTC)
There is no such concept as "membership" in a local congregation. You become a "member" of the Church as a whole, by virtue of being baptized. The only church an individual in that time and place would have been formally a "member" of was "the Orthodox Church", period. Beyond that, the only regional structuring is the one within church organization, i.e. affiliation with a hierarchy of ecclesiastical jurisdiction, but the individual faithful is not part of that. But why are we even having this whole stupid discussion? At a certain time period, the Orthodox church in what is now Albania was affiliated with the jurisdiction of Ohrid. The source, as far as I remember, seemed to imply there had been a somewhat different arrangement at some earlier time. So what? Why is this piece of trivia even of interest? Let alone why are we debating over what precise terms to express it with? This whole debate is just a huge silly tangle of red herrings all round. Fut.Perf. 11:48, 12 January 2012 (UTC)


2011 Census and reactions[edit]

This section of the article seems to be very problematic.I suggest it should be cleaned up and I will proceed myself if there are no problems Vargmali (talk) 18:01, 1 June 2013 (UTC)