Talk:Palestinian people

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Jordan is also part of historic Palestine[edit]

from MBFARB "The British Mandate for Palestine, also known as the Palestine Mandate and the British Mandate of Palestine, was a legal commission for the administration of Palestine, the draft of which was formally confirmed by the Council of the League of Nations on 24 July 1922 and which came into effect on 26 September 1923.[1] The document was based on the principles contained in Article 22 of the draft Covenant of the League of Nations and the San Remo Resolution of 25 April 1920 by the principal Allied and associated powers after the First World War.[1] The mandate formalised British rule in the Southern part of Ottoman Syria from 1923–1948. With the League of Nations' consent on 16 September 1922, the UK divided the Mandate territory into two administrative areas, Palestine, under direct British rule, and autonomous Transjordan, under the rule of the Hashemite family from Hijaz Saudi Arabia, in accordance with the McMahon Pledge of 1915.[1] Transjordan was exempt from the Mandate provisions concerning the Jewish National Home." (http://www.princeton.edu/~achaney/tmve/wiki100k/docs/British_Mandate_of_Palestine.html) — Preceding unsigned comment added by MBFARB (talkcontribs) 19:00, 16 July 2014 (UTC)

This source is (a) based on a very old wikipedia article (see the text at the bottom), and (b) incorrect. Please review Talk:Mandatory Palestine/FAQ: Transjordan. Oncenawhile (talk) 19:14, 16 July 2014 (UTC)
That's a copy of the Wikipedia article made at some point. See Wikipedia:Mirrors and forks. Sean.hoyland - talk 19:09, 16 July 2014 (UTC)

The piece omits that Jordan is part of historic Palestine. "… reside in historic Palestine, the area encompassing the West Bank, the Gaza Strip and Israel."

It is indirectly stated by using "West Bank" instead of Judea and Samaria, but should be included. Stermerkermer (talk) 05:49, 26 May 2014 (UTC)

The source, which is an academic one, defines "historic Palestine" as Israel and the Palestinian Territories (Gaza and the West Bank). The problem here is not with the article, but is probably that your own personal views are at odds with the kind of sources that we base Wikipedia articles on. Dlv999 (talk) 10:06, 28 May 2014 (UTC)

No, your Jewish history-denying sources are incorrect. The western half of Jordan is part of Judea. Jews know the history of the land better than some old British fart sitting at a desk in London. This article is pure bullshit and Pally propaganda. It should be deleted for its anti-Jewish hate speech. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.94.140.31 (talk) 07:15, 5 June 2014 (UTC)

Sure, there's only one version of history, whatever the textbooks say. Yawn.Nishidani (talk) 07:47, 5 June 2014 (UTC)

Why is it whenever i get to any talk page nishidani is always promoting a non factual viewpoint? anyway Jordan was apart of the original Palestine mandate. "historical" palestine is a misnomer, but if you were to factually cite such a concept you would need to include Syria since for centuries either under the roman,byzantines or ottomans it was historically grouped together. The past leader of the hashemite kingdom post and pre-67 stated as much. Lets stop the NPOV inputs. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:D:9580:E47:14A7:7DB6:9BCB:DA55 (talk) 05:55, 27 July 2014 (UTC)

Nishidani seems to have a history of extreme anti-israel and borderline anti-semitic rhetoric. I tried to make edits literally devoid of bias trying to state objective history of the region (WWI, Sykes Picot, Green Line) along with post-1967 "Palestinians are everyone who has ever lived there ever" and he deleted them. Anyway, you are correct that Jordan was part of the original mandate. The change in giving Transjordan to the Hashemites in 1920 should definitely be noted. But I'm not really sure if any progress is possible on this page considering the POV. Also, there is no historic Palestine. --monochrome_monitor 10:53, 28 July 2014 (UTC)

Origin of Palestinians[edit]

I feel that the section on Palestinian origins in this article cites specific sources that prove its own politicized, psuedohistorical agenda. Though it notes, albeit briefly, that Palestinians originate from Muslim conquerors in the previously Greek Syria Palestina, it later attempts to prove that Palestinians are related to biblical entities and thus "were there already". I think that these quotes should be taken off. Palestinian history in the region goes back to 700 AD at most, and genetics does not mean history. --monochrome_monitor 23:00, 5 July 2014 (UTC)

Sorry, what IS history? --YOMAL SIDOROFF-BIARMSKII (talk) 04:33, 24 July 2014 (UTC)
Genetics prove that Palestinian history consists of acculturation to foreign invaders, not genocide followed by mass immigration from the Arabian peninsula. There is no evidence for that happening ever, meaning that yes, the Palestinians' ancestors were in fact there already. That's history.68.191.148.45 (talk) 14:24, 13 October 2014 (UTC)

ID editor it's true that many Palestinians belong to the Cohen lineage. I suppose that many Palestinians descend from Jews who were there, who eventually converted to Christianity and most later on converted to Islam, with some Arabian admixture. Guy355 (talk) 14:28, 13 October 2014 (UTC)

The section on history is severely truncated. Even though a great deal of the history of the Palestinian people is a result of the wars with Israel beginning in 1967, that information is virtually not even referred to, and that leaves the history section stopping in 1967, except for a few bare remarks about the Palestinian political organizations. Without referring to the conflicts, I don't see how this can give a proper representation of the history of this area and its people after that time. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.130.173.78 (talk) 04:28, 30 July 2014 (UTC)

Palestinian people wasn't the name of the group currently called by this name. Prior 1964 the Arabs living in what was "Mandetory Palestine" reffered to themselves as "ARABS" - eventhough they come from many tribes and different migrants' backgrounds, as their surnames suggest, the vast majority of them are Arabs who came from Saudi Arabia and Egypt - "Al Masri" (Arabic for: "The Egyptian") is the most common surname for "palestinians" living in the Land of Israel.--DXRD (talk) 20:31, 18 August 2014 (UTC)

The article could be improved by mentioning the very significant level of immigration to the area during the British mandate of Arabs from Syria, Lebanon, Egypt and Transjordan, who walked in across unpoliced land borders. Indeed, it needs to be mentioned that while the British were extremely zealous in attempting to stop Jewish immigration by sea, which we know could have prevented millions of Jews from dying in gas chambers, they scarcely paid any attention to Arab immigration by land. (The Arabs were attracted by the work opportunities the Jews were creating.) avi1500 00:25 15 October 2014 — Preceding unsigned comment added by Avi1500 (talkcontribs) 23:26, 13 October 2014 (UTC)

Rubbish. pre-Mandate Palestine, 94% were Arabs. 657,000 Muslim Arabs, 81,000 Christian Arabs, and 59,000 Jews Under the Mandate the percentage rose to 33% Jewish. (2) Transhumance was a characteristic of the area, and that is not definable in terms of immigration.Nishidani (talk) 09:23, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

@Avi that's also true, I heard that Hanin Zoabi's ancestors came from modern day Iraq. Guy355 (talk) 05:33, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

@Nishidani perhaps many of them immigrated during the Ottoman era? Guy355 (talk) 09:27, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

It's a matter of percentages. A large part of the late Ottoman Jewish population immigrated after 1850/1882. From the time of Moses Maimonides (and earlier) the Jewish presence in Palestine was a few thousand. It was a Christian Arab country for 700 years, and then an Arab country with a vast Muslim majority till modern times. Joan Peters is not an RS.Nishidani (talk) 09:49, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

I see... However I doubt Palestine/Judah would have been a predominantly Christian province from the time of Jesus or even from the time of the 2nd Jewish rebellion, while Jews were forbidden from living in Jerusalem after the second revolt in 135 was crushed, they still lived and were a majority in other parts of the west bank, including the Galilee, as far as late antiquity, one of the Talmuds, called the Palestinian or Jerusalemite Talmud was written during that time. With the advent of Christianity, I wouldn't be surprised if many Jews and Pagans gradually converted to Christianity, and with the Islamic conquest to Islam, as I've said many Palestinians today belong to the Cohen lineage. P.S I had no idea who was Joan Peters until you mentioned her. Guy355 (talk) 09:56, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

I wasn't talking about Jews, I was asking if it's possible that there was Arab immigration to Palestine in the Ottoman period? The Ottomans considered most of what later became mandate Palestine part of the province of Syria. Guy355 (talk) 10:03, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

Read Gideon Avni, The Byzantine-Islamic Transition in Palestine: An Archaeological Approach, just out from Oxford University Press. Nishidani (talk) 10:12, 14 October 2014 (UTC)


Interesting. My mistake, I misunderstood you, I thought you meant that Christianity was dominant from the 1st century C.E to the rise of Islam, but in fact twas dominant from late antiquity as far as the crusades period. So it seems like the population has remained largely unchanged, with the only thing that changed was religion, gradually changing from the Islamic conquest. I'm not surprised by this, I wouldn't be surprised if modern Palestinians are predominantly of pre exile Jewish ancestry, hopefully archaeologists will be able to find pre exile Jewish remains fit to be fully analysed and compared with modern populations. Guy355 (talk) 10:19, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

'Jews' for antiquity is a very fluid notion, as are 'Greeks', 'Romans' etc.The Jews themselves were a vast meld of local Semitic and non-Semitic peoples (Israelites/Canaanits/Phonicians/Aramaens, Kenits, Hovites, Hittites etc.), as the Bible itself attests. Around the 5th cent. rules of blood descent began to fix ideological boundaries, just as a religious orthodoxy imposed new criteria (the Elephantine Jews had cults unrecognizable to our modern idea of Judaism etc.) Jews were broken into bitterly opposed sectarian groups, the Samaritans were not considered Jews, and their population was massive. All this is lost in retrospectiv classifications of 'Jews' = Judaism/blood lineag which is a late rabbinical consequence the failure of Jewish nationalism. Modern Palestinians are a mix like th ancint Jews, and both had priods of convrsions, Jews to Christianity (which was a Jewish sect), Jews and Christians to Islam. Nishidani (talk) 10:39, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

Yeah, I suppose that's true. This map shows which populations are closest to Ashkenazi Jews according to IBD segments, the relations with Greeks and Basques are due to kinship while the relations with Ukrainians and Belarussians are due to a long period of cohabitation: https://verenich.files.wordpress.com/2014/07/ashkenaziibd1.png [1] Guy355 (talk) 10:42, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

Genetics cancls history. I know of 'Ashkenazi' for whom in 8 known generations there is only one Jewish presence in the genealogy (the second last). What does that mean about the resultant heirs' putative 'Middle Eastern origins'? Nothing. It's just a rhetorical game of excluding what an ethnic classification regards as trivial if substantial, in favour of the one minor element the politics of identity whimsically decides to prioritize. This whole area of definition is wracked by loose thinking and conceptual puerility. Nishidani (talk) 11:29, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

The thing is that genetics is science, and in many cases, especially these days, it and archaeology go hand in hand. Unfortunately it can also be hijacked by maniacs like members of Stormfront or ultra nationalists trying to prove bloody purity of the group that they belong to, such a thing though, is impossible, genetics has proved it, look at this study: http://arxiv.org/ftp/arxiv/papers/1312/1312.6639.pdf Guy355 (talk) 11:32, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

Israelite origins?[edit]

Israelites now asserts that Palestinians are of Israelite origin. See also Talk:Israelites. Dougweller (talk) 08:21, 18 August 2014 (UTC)

Most of the "palestinians" are from Arab origin. They acknowledge it and so is the rest of the world. Even the Hamas officials stated that most of the "palestinians" are of Saudi and Egyptian Arab descent.--DXRD (talk) 20:33, 18 August 2014 (UTC)
And if you can't trust Hamas, who can you trust? ;-) Editor2020 01:25, 19 August 2014 (UTC)
It logically follows that Zionist ideology calls for erasing the non-Jewish inhabitants of the area from history, because the idea of Zionism is that European and other Jews have "more of a right" to be there than whatever non-Jewish people happened to live there before Israel was established. Zionist ideology doesn't belong on Wikipedia. The inclusion of all the sources proving their genetic continuity with ancient inhabitants is specifically to dispel this popular misconception deliberately spread by Zionist agitators.68.191.148.45 (talk) 14:22, 13 October 2014 (UTC)

Infobox change[edit]

I am opening this discussion with a desire to change the infobox mosaic, which I find to be missing some important Palestinian individuals. I made a new one to feature other important Palestinians such as Emile Habibi, Ahmed Yassin, Michel Sabbah and Raed Salah.

Here is the new mosaic I created:
300px

PacificWarrior101 (talk) 07:46, 25 August 2014 (UTC)PacificWarrior101

Please review Wikipedia's fair use rules. We're not allowed to use fair use images in galleries such as these, so you have to remove Ahmed Yassin. — Malik Shabazz Talk/Stalk 02:58, 27 August 2014 (UTC)
Alright, I'll change it soon.PacificWarrior101 (talk) 03:38, 27 August 2014 (UTC)PacificWarrior101
Hi PacificWarrior, nice work but there is no need to remove Riah Hanna Abu El-Assal, Riyad al-Maliki, and Rashid Khalidi, these are notable palestinians with great images available for use. Also the photo already in use for Juliano Khamis is a far better color photo with higher resolution than the one you replaced it with. Lazyfoxx (talk) 18:42, 27 August 2014 (UTC)
I can put these individuals in the new collage I'll make, that'll likely consist of 25 people. I replaced Riah Hanna Abu El-Assal with Michel Sabbah because Sabbah is a far-more significant Palestinian Christian clergyman, the first native Palestinian to become part of his clergy. The reason why I used another picture for Julian Mer-Khamis because the current one in use is a half-face portrait, and besides - it's only part of a gallery. Rashid Khalili would be far-more fitting for an article like Arab Americans or Palestinian Americans - same goes for Nathalie Handal. PacificWarrior101 (talk) 08:01, 29 August 2014 (UTC)PacificWarrior101
Yes I think it would be best if you kept the all the people in the current box and also added the ones you would like to as they are all good examples of Palestinians. Lazyfoxx (talk) 08:43, 2 September 2014 (UTC)