Talk:Palestinian territories

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to: navigation, search
News This article has been mentioned by a media organisation:
          This article is of interest to the following WikiProjects:
WikiProject Palestine (Rated C-class, Top-importance)
WikiProject icon This article is within the scope of WikiProject Palestine, a team effort dedicated to building and maintaining comprehensive, informative and balanced articles related to the geographic Palestine region, the Palestinian people and the State of Palestine on Wikipedia. Join us by visiting the project page, where you can add your name to the list of members where you can contribute to the discussions.
C-Class article C  This article has been rated as C-Class on the project's quality scale.
 Top  This article has been rated as Top-importance on the project's importance scale.
 
WikiProject Asia (Rated C-class, Top-importance)
WikiProject icon This article is within the scope of WikiProject Asia, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Asia on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.
C-Class article C  This article has been rated as C-Class on the project's quality scale.
 Top  This article has been rated as Top-importance on the project's importance scale.
 
WikiProject Western Asia (Rated C-class, Top-importance)
WikiProject icon This article is within the scope of the WikiProject Western Asia, which collaborates on articles related to Western Asia. To participate, you can edit this article or visit the project page for more details.
C-Class article C  This article has been rated as C-Class on the project's quality scale.
 Top  This article has been rated as Top-importance on the project's importance scale.
 
WikiProject Arab world (Rated C-class, Top-importance)
WikiProject icon This article is within the scope of WikiProject Arab world, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of the Arab world on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.
C-Class article C  This article has been rated as C-Class on the project's quality scale.
 Top  This article has been rated as Top-importance on the project's importance scale.
 
WikiProject Unrecognized countries    (Inactive)
WikiProject icon This article is within the scope of WikiProject Unrecognized countries, a project which is currently considered to be inactive.
 

Hamas states Gaza is not occupied?[edit]

The claim in the article that Mahmoud Zahar has stated that Gaza is no longer occupied is very dubious, especially when just following the opinion of the UN, ICJ etc. that Israel is still the occupying power. Zahar is not talking about the legal status of the territory. He is talking about the fact that there is no Israeli inside the Gaza strip after the withdrawal. Here is the full quote: "Against whom could we demonstrate in the Gaza Strip? When Gaza was occupied, that model was applicable," Zahhar said.

This in no way supports the claim that Hamas has said that the legal status of the territories has changed. As far as I can see, this claim originated from an op-ed in the Jerusalem post by the executive director UN Watch: http://www.jpost.com/Opinion/Op-Ed-Contributors/Hamas-says-Gaza-not-occupied-UN-disagrees

I am rewording the sentence to explicitly cite the op-ed rather than claiming this as self-evident. I have also found this interview where Zahar refers to it as "occupation": http://www.aljazeera.com/news/middleeast/2009/02/200928195444472727.html Kingsindian (talk) 18:43, 22 July 2014 (UTC)

Considered by whom[edit]

I've tagged The borders of the Palestinian territories are currently considered[who?] to be delineated by the 1949 Armistice Agreements with a {{who}} template specifically on considered.

The article lead is a bit vague as to the article scope... The Palestinian territories or occupied Palestinian territories (OPT or oPt) comprise the West Bank (including East Jerusalem) and the Gaza Strip. But Palestinian territories and occupied Palestinian territories are not synonymous, surely? Who is occupying Gaza?

In view of the loaded nature of whatever terms are used, I think this is a particularly dangerous lack of citation. The general citation at the end of the sentence is to the 1949 Egyptian-Israeli Armistice [5] which does not necessarily cover the current situation. Andrewa (talk) 23:16, 24 December 2012 (UTC)

I will tell more - there is a clear widespread reference to "Palestinian controlled territories" or simply "Palestinian territories" (Gaza Strip+areas A,B in the West Bank); i have now added this definition in the lead to clarify, but we certainly have to make much more distinct definitions what are "Palestinian territories"/"Occupied Palestinian territories" (whole Palestine?/Arab areas of 47' partition plan?/West Bank+Gaza? only West Bank? only area C of West Bank?)/"Palestinian controlled territories" (area A,B of West Bank+Gaza?/only areas A,B of West Bank?/only Gaza?).Greyshark09 (talk) 20:13, 25 December 2012 (UTC)
As for Gaza, I can't recall a source for this off the top of my head, but if I remember correctly the sutiation is that because of the Gaza pullout Israel concedes itself to no longer be occupying Gaza, but the UN, or maybe it was the international community, says that Israel still occupies Gaza because Israel still controls Gaza's airspace, waters, entry/exist to and from Gaza, and stuff like that.
As for the meaning of Palestinian territories/Occupied Palestinian territories:
To quote what Nableezy said on this page "The [occupied] Palestinian territories (and the UNSC repeatedly has referred to the oPt, and multiple UN agencies refer to the oPt, see for example OCHA oPt) are the West Bank (in its entirety), including East Jerusalem, and the Gaza Strip. The area under control of the PNA is not that. The claim that the Pt term today is widely implemented not to the entire WB and GS, but specifically to the areas under PNA control is completely unsupported and easily refuted. See for example this, or this, or this. The UN uses the term all the time, the idea that it doesnt is pure fiction. So does most of the world, and so do an overwhelming number of sources."
At Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Palestine#Redirects Greyshark asserted that PT is "dubious and vague", I quote the responses:
To quote Dlv999: "There is nothing vague or dubious about the term Palestinian Territories. It is a well defined and commonly used term used to describe Gaza and the West Bank (including East Jerusalem).
Palestinian Territories is the name used to refer to the West Bank and the Gaza Strip by International media organizations [6], [7], in academic literature [8], by the UN[9], [10], EU [11], individual Governments such as the UK[12] and US[13], international human rights organizations [14], [15], the International Court of Justice [16], and the International committee of the Red Cross [17] among others.
Unless you provide evidence to support your assertions all you are giving us is your personal opinion, which does not carry much weight."
To quote Sean.hoyland: "I don't think anything you have said there is actually the case. It strikes me a quite a parochial and oddly fragmented way of looking at things. Perhaps it makes sense from the perspective of a subset of citizens of one small country, but it's out of step with RS. As for occupied Palestinian territories, "Palestinian Territory, Occupied" is even part of the ISO 3166 standard used all over the world by countless companies/organizations/systems, and covers both the entire West Bank (inc. East Jerusalem) and Gaza Strip. It seems much more dubious and vague to push for the use of PNA and Hamas Administration to describe what countless sources refer to simply and unambiguously as the Palestinian territories, with or without the "occupied". It's very clear what the Palestinian territories means because it is defined by the green line that separates Israel from not-Israel."
Also the long standing lead has described the PT as being the West Bank and Gaza, and if there were any real dispute over that, the lead's definition would have dawn far far more controversy, and would have done so a long time ago. Also, Here's a BBC map of the PT, and a US government map. They include all of the West Bank and Gaza Strip.
As for "currently considered", it should probably be removed. East Jerusalem aside, it is an indisputable historic fact that the 1949 Armistice Agreements established the Green line that defines the West Bank and Gaza Strip.
As for Greyshark's edit that introduced the praise "Palestinian-controlled territories" I reverted it for multiple reasons. First of all, Palestinian Administered Territories means "the Gaza Strip and the West Bank", and according to this (p.4) the PNA has some, albeit extremely limited, authority over area C, and our Administrative divisions of the Oslo Accords article in area C there is "full Israeli civil and security control, except over Palestinian civilians"(emphases mine). Considering this I would like to see RS stating that "PCT" means only Area's A and B before stating that that's what is means. The sources given don't seem to define what the PCT is, at least not clearly. "Palestinian-controlled territories of the West Bank and Gaza Strip" could mean that the PCT are the West Bank and Gaza Strip, or that they are parts of the West Bank and Gaza Strip.
Secondly very few web-pages use "PCT" in their title so it doesn't seem to be a commonly used praise, there must be a far more commonly used praise used to refer to Area's A and B. We should avoid using PCT anyway (to refer to Area's A and B) because it sounds too much like "Palestinian territories" and would be too confusing. If PCT means Area's A and B then the PCT and the PT are not the are not the same thing anyway, and this is the "Palestinian territories" article. Emmette Hernandez Coleman (talk) 20:32, 26 December 2012 (UTC)
Here's some info about Gaza's "occupied" status at Israeli-occupied_territories#Gaza_Strip. Emmette Hernandez Coleman (talk) 00:11, 27 December 2012 (UTC)
Emmette, except the fact you really like the term "Palestinian territories", you bring very little actual hard sources to support your stance - most of your "support" is other editors' opinions and wikipedia quotes, which both are essentially irrelevant.Greyshark09 (talk) 15:46, 27 December 2012 (UTC)
I understand your removal of well sourced lead material regarding "Palestinian-controlled territories" means that you would not like this material in this article:
In 1993, following the Oslo Accords, parts of the West Bank and Gaza Strip politically came under the jurisdiction of the Palestinian National Authority, and which began to referred as "Palestinian-controlled territories".[1][2][3][4]
I guess then i should start a new article on this? This is certainly not UNDUE topic, but i first though it should be covered in this article.Greyshark09 (talk) 15:51, 27 December 2012 (UTC)
  1. ^ BBC. 1999. "...to connect the Palestinian-controlled territories of the West Bank with the Gaza Strip." [1]
  2. ^ [2]
  3. ^ Far East and Australasia 2003.[3]
  4. ^ Sharma. The New Terrorism: Islamist International. "...of the anti-Israel atmosphere that dominates the Palestinian controlled territories". [4]
  • Comment - i think it gets down to what are Palestinian territories?
Are those 1967 Occupied Palestinian territories (West Bank + Gaza Strip) [18]?
Maybe those are the currently fully Israeli-annexed and occupied territories (East Jerusalem + Area C of West Bank) [19]?
Maybe those are Palestinian-controlled territories (Gaza Strip by Hamas and Areas A,B of West Bank by PNA/SoP) [20],[21]?
Maybe even those are the designated Arab Palestinian territories of 1947 partition plan [22]?
It seems the term Pt brings a lot of ambiguity here, which is also constantly changing in the field.Greyshark09 (talk) 15:46, 27 December 2012 (UTC)
[23] [24] [25] [26] [27] [28] [29] [30] [31] [32] [33]. Emmette Hernandez Coleman (talk) 09:58, 28 December 2012 (UTC)
At wikiproject Palestine, among other places, you previously asserted that "Palestinian territories" is not simply comprised of the West Bank and Gaza, but is "vague and dubious" yet your assertion was unanimously rejected, that is relevant. If what Dlv999, Sean.hoyland, and Nableezy say is essentially irrelevant, so is what you say. That the lead has for years, somehow gotten away with clearly stating that the Palestinian territories comprises the West Bank and Gaza, despite "Palestinian territories" being "vague and dubious" is relevant. None of your sources define "Palestinian territories" as anything other then West Bank and Gaza, in fact this one's map of what it calls the Palestinian territories includes all of the West Bank and Gaza Strip (with color coding for the Administrative divisions of the Oslo Accords).
The overwhelming majority of RS defines PT as West Bank and Gaza. The closest thing I found to a source that defines PT as something other then West Bank and Gaza is this which says "The term "Palestinian territories" is used by mainstream Western journalists as a collective name for the West Bank and the Gaza Strip - two territories in Palestine. [...] [U]sed in a more general sense, the term "Palestinian territories" simply refers to areas within the geographic region known from ancient times as "Palestine" (see definitions of Palestine). This usage is rare in modern-times." All those other sources I found that clearly define the PT define it as the West Bank and the Gaza Strip. Emmette Hernandez Coleman (talk) 04:19, 29 December 2012 (UTC)
So in accordance with your sources, i guess we agree that Palestinian territories can be "Palestinian controlled territories" as well as "Occupied Palestinian territories". Maybe we should also mentioned "Liberated Palestinian territories" (a used by PA and by Hamas for Palestinian-controlled areas per Palestinian terminology guide, see [34]).Greyshark09 (talk) 18:07, 31 December 2012 (UTC)
No, the overwhelming majority of RS defines the Palestinian territories as consisting of the West Bank and Gaza Strip. It looks like "Liberated Palestinian territory" and "Palestinian territories" are not the same thing, it would seem that "Liberated Palestinian territory" refers to the "liberated" (area's A and B) parts of the Palestinian territories, Also no pages have Liberated Palestinian territories or Liberated Palestinian territory in their title so it doesn't seem to be a commonly used term, there must be a far more commonly used term used to refer to Area's A and B.
From your PDF:
"The total area of the West Bank and Gaza Strip is 6,187 km2 (including the Dead Sea surface). Of this, the West Bank comprises 5,822 km2 and the Gaza Strip 365 km2. The territory, which is still under Israel’s control, represents 60% of the total area of the Palestinian territory." So according to your source Area C it part of the Palestinian territory. Emmette Hernandez Coleman (talk) 21:47, 31 December 2012 (UTC)
Also I didn't remove that whole sentence, I just reverted your edit to it. I have no objection to the sentence as it currently stands: "In 1993, following the Oslo Accords, parts of the territories politically came under the jurisdiction of the Palestinian National Authority" Emmette Hernandez Coleman (talk) 21:59, 31 December 2012 (UTC)
"Liberated-Palestinian territory" is not the main term used, so it doesn't matter (i still think it should be mentioned); the common names are "Occupied Palestinian territories" and "Palestinian controlled territories" - both are essentially "Palestinian territories", but mean slightly different things. Correct for now Palestinian Autonomous Areas redirect to Palestinian territories (redirected by yourself!) and we should mention this in the territories article, unless you want to split "Palestinian-controlled areas" from "Palestinian territories" (i'm against such split, but we can make a split proposal if you like).Greyshark09 (talk) 06:10, 2 January 2013 (UTC)
I still object to using "Palestinian controlled territories" for the reasons stated above, and it doesn't seem to be anywhere near as common as "Palestinian territories" (with or without the "Occupied"). If I understand you correctly your saying that "Palestinian controlled territories" excludes area C, and if your correct about that then it is not essentially "Palestinian territories", because it excludes Area C, and as I pointed out the overwhelming majority of RS define "Palestinian territories" as consisting of the West Bank and Gaza Strip, not just Areas A and B (I haven't per checked into this but I think we can safely assume that the overwhelming majority of RS also defines "Occupied Palestinian territories" as consisting of West Bank and Gaza Strip). Yesha is essentially "Palestinian territories" because it only excludes East Jerusalem, it includes Area C.
About "Palestinian Autonomous Areas" the edit summery contains a link to a dictionary (but here's a better link) that defines it as "the Gaza Strip and the West Bank", that's why it redirects here, although now that you mention it the BBC used that term to specifically refer to Area's A and B, so "Palestinian Autonomous Areas" would probably be better as a disambig.
I added "(Areas A and B)" to the end of that sentence, and if there is some commonly used term to refer to Areas A and B, I don't see why we can't add something along the lines of "Areas A and B are collectivity known as [term]" to this article and the Administrative divisions of the Oslo Accords article. Emmette Hernandez Coleman (talk) 00:58, 3 January 2013 (UTC)
As for a split, there's nothing to split. This article is about the Palestinian territories, which consists of the West Bank and Gaza Strip. If Areas A and B of the Palestinian territories would warrant their own article someone can write one. Emmette Hernandez Coleman (talk) 01:06, 3 January 2013 (UTC)
Ok, that would help, but i disagree that we should write a whole new article about "Palestinian controlled territories" (or Palestinian Autonomous areas), simply because the term is pretty much loosely defined and is used interchangeably with simply "Palestinian territories".Greyshark09 (talk) 18:51, 3 January 2013 (UTC)

East Jerusalem is under the jurisdiction of Israel, so despite Wikipedia's anti Israeli bias it should not be included in the lead.74.104.159.130 (talk) 12:05, 30 November 2013 (UTC)

This appears to be your personal opinion about what constitutes the Palestinian territories and as such it's irrelevant here. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia that is meant to reflect the content of published reliable sources rather than the misconceptions and personal views of its contributors. Sean.hoyland - talk 17:40, 30 November 2013 (UTC)

No Sean it is a fact, East Jersusalem is under Israel jurisdiction. It is the capitol of Israel.74.104.159.130 (talk) 23:14, 30 November 2013 (UTC)

Proposed deletion of map template in use on this page[edit]

Ambox warning pn.svgTemplate:Palestinian territory development has been nominated for deletion. You are invited to comment on the discussion at the template's entry on the Templates for discussion page. Oncenawhile (talk) 18:03, 26 January 2014 (UTC)

untitled[edit]

WHY "Jewish Owned Land" on Map, but NO "Arab owned Land"? - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Jewish_Land_Ownership_in_Mandatory_Palestine,_1947.svg - Because they want you to get the FALSE impression Arabs owned the rest. - ` 2/3 of what became Israel was STATE LAND under the Ottomans (miri), then British; belonging to NO Arab.. Including ALL of the Negev Desert/which alone/itself became HALF of Israel. ` - — Preceding unsigned comment added by 172.254.20.88 (talk) 00:07, 17 May 2014 (UTC)