Talk:Pallava dynasty

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Origin[edit]

There are many conjenctures which strongly point towards Pahlava/Kambhoja origin of Pallavas. 1. Palnadu (roughly present day Guntur district of Andhra Pradesh) was the seat of Satavahanas under whom Pallavas were vassals and who became independent later. 'Palnadu' can be traced to 'Pallava Nadu'. 2. The same region was known as Kammanadu since 3rd century CE. The origin of the name can be traced to Kambhojas akin to Pallavas who ruled the region. 3. The Pallava-Cambodian connection can be traced to the name Kambhoja and Khmer (Kammavar, a caste that is still predominant in Palnadu/Kammanadu region). 4. The language spoken by ancient Pallavas was Tenugu/Telungu/Telugu. 5. Many Puranic evidences spoke of Kambhoja settlements in South India (E.g Garuda Purana). 6. A popular anthology of stories in Telugu language "Kambhoja Raju Kathalu" (Stories of Kambhoja king).


Origin of Pallava is highly misleading. Somebody is trying to promote their propoganda of glorifying the legacy of Persian or Central Asian culture. I mean somebody is trying to force the opinion that Pallavas and Chalukyas are of Central Asian origin, which similar to the attempt of connecting Shakyamuni (Buddha) to Saka origin, based on pseudo-historic references. Such arguments are a disgrace to Wikipedia.

Regarding pallava origin The pallavas are ancient race who descended from aswattaman of mahabharatha and who ultimately went on to become the crowned kings of kanchi. Several pallava princes have founded kingdoms and ruled in south east asia,like in funan. All pallava literature agree with this.associating them to deccan states, their natural enemies is pure non-sense and an attempt to manipulate info.

Pallavas

Is the Pallavas Telugu speaking or Tamil?OR are they speaking some form ancient Dravidian language which give rise to both languages?The wikipedia states official language as Tamil. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sureshnaidu (talkcontribs) 15:45, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

Dance forms on the beaches of mahabalipuram pay respect to the kings of the pallava dynasty

You state too many baseless claims. Just because a region was called Palnadu and later called Kammanadu does not mean anything (btw, check out in tamil what Kammanati means). --= No ||| Illusion = (talk) 16:31, 26 July 2012 (UTC)Mayasutra

fact check[edit]

  • Last pallava king Nripathungan ruled from 869. --Vyzasatya 22:29, 1 November 2005 (UTC)
  • From this reference

The Mamallapuram Prasasti: A Panegyric in Figures Michael D. Rabe Artibus Asiae, Vol. 57, No. 3/4. (1997), pp. 189-241. Narasimhavarman III's rule ended 869. Make changes Accordingly.

Noticed lot of discripancies in the kings timelines. Whoever wrote the original timeline please cite the source so that it can be verified --Vyzasatya 22:41, 1 November 2005 (UTC)

  • The middle pallava succession given here seems to be proposed by T.V.Mahalingam in Kañcipuram in early South Indian history. Another two succession lines are given by different historians

--Vyzasatya 23:02, 1 November 2005 (UTC)

  • We need reference from an authoritative source for the following view:

Lajwantsingh1965

Second view is that they were an offshoot from the Cholas. It is claimed that the Pallavas were a lineage of the Chola kings who went on a maritime journey and begot a child who formed a seperate branch (Pallavam,meaning bud in Sanskrit).


Culture[edit]

How come there is nothing written about the culture during the Pallavas' reign? --Madhu 12:43, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

Why don't you write something?
Parthi (Venu62) 21:02, 14 April 2006 (UTC)
I would if I have any information and references on that. --Madhu 14:42, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

Pallavas are telugus or tamils?or something "inbetween?can somebody clarify this?bhotiporrulu scriptsare much older then pallavas right? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sureshnaidu (talkcontribs) 13:27, 29 October 2009 (UTC)

Not correct to assume they must have been Telugus. We only know they moved from current Telugu regions into Tamil lands. True they were ruling in Telugu regions before the Tamil regions. Historian KR Subramaniam says they were a telugu power. But perhaps that is only indicative they were from Telugu lands. Their mother tongue cud have been anything. They could have come from anywhere. In telugu regions they left stuff in Telugu and in Tamil regions they left stuff in Tamil. That is what all rulers did. Maybe they nativized in Telugu areas before moving into Tamil lands. That is a strong possibility considering they nativized in Tamil regions as well. If so many southern cheiftains ganged up to resist incoming Pallavas they must have originally come from elsewhere, not necessarily Southern India, and must have been a powerful foe. --= No ||| Illusion = (talk) 16:18, 26 July 2012 (UTC)Mayasutra
Ya,maybe the Pallavas move from current Telugu country,but we cant be sure to what extend were the Telugu or Tamil countries in those medieval period as the homeland of Pallavas stretches from Nelloor,AP to the whole of Northern TN--Tan Meifen (talk) 13:29, 29 July 2012 (UTC)
You cud do some research and provide the extent of Pallava territories, apart from the ones mentioned in this article. --= No ||| Illusion = (talk) 06:43, 30 July 2012 (UTC)Mayasutra

what is the evidence that pallavas used tamil in andra region? the article mention tamil and sanskrit in the main box...but mentioned they used prakrit in fine print. where is the evidence they used tamil? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sureshnaidu (talkcontribs) 03:59, 16 April 2013 (UTC)

Influence abroad[edit]

Pallavas were instrumental in spreading Vedic culture to South East Asia and had cordial relationship with Sri Lankan kings thus influencing their architecture and other cultural aspects. Cambodian kings claimed origin from a Pallava era Brahmin immigrant from Kanchipuram? Anyway someone should check this out and add it to this articleRaveenS 20:23, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the post. A good book to look into would be The Pallavas of Kanchi. I have read in several books that the first king of Cambodia was Kaundiniya I. There was also a Kaundiniya who ruled parts of Malaya and Inonesia. Wiki Raja 18:03, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
Pallava monarch Narasimhavarman helped the Sri Lankan prince Manavanma to regain his throne from his uncle, Manavanma was also said to have participated in the Vatapi campaign on Narasimhavarman's side.

Ref: Narasimhavarman, Mayilai.Seeni.Venkatasami (Tamil) Simha_NV 08:32, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

Qualify the people making the quotes[edit]

The people quoted in the origins section are not given qualifications. Who are these people? What are their qualifications to make these statements? Where do they teach; what do they do? These need to be included. Also, the last quote is not sperated from the rest of the text with italics so it's impossible to tell where the quote ends. Can an expert fix this?--Lendorien 18:11, 4 July 2007 (UTC)


Flag/Emblem?[edit]

Why is that the flags or emblems of Pallava's is not mentioned in this aritcle? All the South Indian dynasties had a flag/emblem of their own, Pallavas had Rishaba (the bull), which was later changed in to Simma (the lion) by Narasimhavarman to mark his victory over the Chalukyas at Vatabi (i am not sure of this fact, please check!) -Simha_NV 08:42, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

WikiProject Dravidian civilizations[edit]

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Wiki Raja 09:11, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

Indian Kingdoms and Borders, 600 AD[edit]

Unknown map source, India in 600 AD

I have 2 different source maps for the borders of India, circa 600 AD, and they both show major differences. The first map's source is listed, I don't remember my source for the 2nd map. Also, looking at the www.WorldHistory.com map of India in 586 AD, it is also different from these 2 maps. Which of these maps shows the correct borders for India in 600 AD? Thomas Lessman (talk) 15:32, 14 December 2007 (UTC)


Removed POV Template[edit]

Removed POV template showing the kingdoms of Northern India as Empires, and kingdoms of Southern India as dynasties. No evidence as to whether all Northern kingdoms were Empires, while all Southern kingdoms were dynasties. Ashoka kingdom of Northern India is an Empire since it has controlled everything in South Asia outside its boundaries accept for Tamil Nadu, Kerala, and Sri Lanka. While the Cholas of Southern India is also an Empire stretching from South India to Sri Lanka, Maldives, Malaysia, Sumatra, and Java with its Navies. "Middle Kingdoms of India" template shows only bias towards Indo-Aryan kingdoms, and also making it seem that the Indian Union existed for thousands of years. Wiki Raja (talk) 06:53, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

Karunakara Thondaiman or Karunakara Pallavarayar[edit]

Guys,

I feel the Pallava section is incomplete without the mention of Karunakara Thondaiman. Why dont we include a section on the pallava chieftains who continued as vassals under Chola reign. One great example is Karunakara Thondaiman or Karunara Pallavarayar. He was a general under Kulothunga chola I and Vikrama chola and the great "Kalingathu Parani" was sung in his praise. I can provide with inscription/literature evidences etc. We might link it to the "Karunakar Thondaiman" article in the wikipedia.

Regards Kalingarayar (talk) 14:34, 30 June 2011 (UTC)

=

Origin of Pallava[edit]

Recently pallavas are stated as telugu power,it doesnt matter if they are telugu or tamil but why the prove that is found in tamil literature is denied by stating pallavas as a telugu power based on only inscription rather than a written account that is found on the tamil sites.Other than that,we all know that pallavas had made a lot of contributions to tamil language,they created pallava grantha to write sanskrit rather than using tamil script,an effort to protect the tamil language from the influence of sanskrit.Why this pallavas(stated as telugu power) are so bothered to do all these things for tamil?Other than that famous pallava king Mahendravarman 1 are known as father of tamil script, inventing cotemporary tamil script.If This pallavas are telugu why there are so bothered to contribute to tamil languague rather than telugu language.There are no effort like this made on the telugu language.As known the pallavas are patronizer of sanskrit,(an influence from satavahanas),but there were also major tamil literature works were formed.Is there any telugu literature works formed under patronization of these pallavas.As stated by somebody the pallavas cant be something in between telugu or tamil because tamil is not an medieval language as telugu.In my opinion I strongly believe that pallavas are tamil.Some effort are made in comparing pallavs with central asian dynasty which is only an idea(cant be said as hypothesis)from historians — Preceding unsigned comment added by Tan Meifen (talkcontribs) 07:15, 10 January 2012 (UTC)

Why should a non-tamil not promote Tamil? Kings everywhere left inscriptions in the native regional language. Vijayanagar kings left inscriptions in tamil regions in tamil language. Some Maratha kings wrote in chaste Telugu. Maybe they liked the language or maybe it was just strategy to endear them to native speakers. So what? --= No ||| Illusion = (talk) 15:30, 26 July 2012 (UTC)Mayasutra
Is these reasons to further manipulate the origins of Pallava?--Tan Meifen (talk) 13:44, 29 July 2012 (UTC)
Making unreferenced claims to suit one's own origin theory/imagination is called manipulation, which the likes of Lifebonzza have done here. Instead of protesting on talk page, feel free to do your research and provide referenced inputs to the article.--= No ||| Illusion = (talk) 06:43, 30 July 2012 (UTC)Mayasutra
Some of the sources like this [1] are miscontrued to state Telugu origin, while they are used to denote a Telugu lineage after 12-13th centuries. The section needs a rewrite.

Ssriram mt (talk) 22:35, 31 January 2012 (UTC)ssriram_mt

After 12-13th centuries you say. Please provide references for your claims. Cholas, Cheras and Pandyas formed the Sangam trio. Pallavas are not mentioned in Chola Nadu, Pandya Nadu and Chera Nadu. Pallavas fought against Cholas to establish their rule in Tamil regions. Sufficient references are provided in the article itself. Just becoz Manimekalai posits Ilamtiriyan as the son of a Chola does not mean it is a historically acceptable fact, especially when there are copper plates stating otherwise. Manimekalai and sangam compositions are poets' imaginations inspired by what they see -- does not mean they have to be historically correct. --= No ||| Illusion = (talk) 15:30, 26 July 2012 (UTC)Mayasutra
Both literature and inscriptions were sources of current scholars to explain the past which has same priority.Commenting about accuracy of Tamil literature based on your own imagination is completely irrelevant.If the sources overlap,just add everything with reference,whats the harm in doing so? It is noted the Pallavas was post or late Sangam age dynasty who occupied Thondai Nadu which nothing to do with Chera,Chola or Pandya Nadu and were mentioned in Sangam literature as rulers of Tamilakam,maybe not as early as the the Three Crowned Kings maybe because of their presence in late Sangam age.Pandya and Cheras were pre-Sangam dynasties.--Tan Meifen (talk) 13:44, 29 July 2012 (UTC)
Pallavas were mentioned in select Sangam literature (ahanuru, manimekalai and perumbanarrupatai) -- have already mentioned so in the article. If there are other sangam period works mentioning the pallavas, please mention so in the article (with references). As for the rest of your claims, feel free to provide references or it would be called your own imagination.--= No ||| Illusion = (talk) 06:43, 30 July 2012 (UTC)Mayasutra

Official Language of Pallava[edit]

Why Tamil is stated next to telugu?The lineage of Pallava strictly need to be recorrected!!!!!!!.--Tan Meifen (talk) 13:41, 8 February 2012 (UTC)

Alleged misrepresentation[edit]

An allegation of misrepresentation of sources has been made. Please could this be discussed here. Thanks. - Sitush (talk) 14:31, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

I don't think the user is gonna respond. Am reverting article and leaving him a message. Hope he will respond then. --= No ||| Illusion = (talk) 15:32, 26 July 2012 (UTC)Mayasutra
Thank you for the constructive request Sitush and for assuming good faith. The article is currently being expanded, and more reliable sources will be added. Others are welcome to contribute, however in future, I would appreciate if users did not remove all of the text without reason or discussion... Lifebonzza (talk) 15:38, 26 July 2012 (UTC)
Sitush, until Lifebonzza provides reliable sources for his claims, what do we do with the article? I suggest reverting it to its older state until he provides references (btw, Lifebonzza deleted referenced material and inserted his unreferenced claims). --= No ||| Illusion = (talk) 15:51, 26 July 2012 (UTC)Mayasutra
The burden is on the person who makes statements in articles to ensure that they are verifiable. If those statements are challenged etc then they should probably be removed pending discussion and/or provision of reliable sources. I am quite strict on this: if it is not referenced then it should not be here. - Sitush (talk) 16:34, 26 July 2012 (UTC)
That's fine, however adding citation tags as an interim step while reliable sources are added to the verifiable information would be much preferred to removing everything wholesale while an article is being expanded. Lifebonzza (talk) 16:46, 26 July 2012 (UTC)
Not if it is challenged. You really need to do things in the correct order. That is, find your sources and then add the statements with citations. It looks like this has been going on for at least a fortnight and that is more than long enough. What happens if you drop dead tomorrow? (I hope you don't, obviously, but we'd be left with your assertions and nothing to support them). - Sitush (talk) 16:49, 26 July 2012 (UTC)
The information is verifiable. I don't believe one edit reverting all my edits on here was done on the pretext that it was all challengable and unverifiable. Lifebonzza (talk) 17:02, 26 July 2012 (UTC)
OK. I suggest as a compromise that you remove all unsourced statements for now and add them back when you have sorted out citations etc. Then we can look at the stuff which is sourced and contested. I know nothing about this dynasty and so will be approaching the issue with fresh eyes. - Sitush (talk) 17:17, 26 July 2012 (UTC)
Sitush, i put back referenced material. Also added some new referenced content. If Lifebonzza wants to add in his stuff, he is welcome to do so with references. Was not able to check veracity of all statements so left it with "citation needed". Lifebonzza provided two references in the entire article from his end. One is "The Handbook of Tamil Culture and Heritage" and another is a URL from chestofbooks.com. Have retained sentences attributed to both the references. Just letting you know. I may not be able to follow this up. Hope you keep an eye on this article. Also suggest someone moves major portions of 'Origins', and the 'Chronology of Pallavas' from here to the article Origin of Pallava. Thanks. Bye.--= No ||| Illusion = (talk) 04:55, 27 July 2012 (UTC)Mayasutra