Talk:Panic! at the Disco/Archive 4

EMERGENCY FLIGHT LANDING

so apparantly on a flight to singapore, the plane carrying the members of panic at the disco had to make an emergency landing. Sources are saying that the flight landed at a small airport a quarter of the way to singapore, and that ambulances and fire trucks were standing by waiting to see what would happen with the landing...The flight was apparantly experiencing mechanical difficulties. All though members of the band and crew were not injured just extremely shaken up, the paramedics took all 4 members of the band to a local hospital where they were all quickly checked and released. A few hours later a plane from London's heathrow airport flew in to carry the still shaken members of the band and crew to singapore. Upon landing in Singapore, members of panic at the disco were observed calling family, friends, and girlfriends informing them of what had happened.Hardknocklife4you (talk) 08:09, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

Logo

I think a different logo should be used, since after the name change, the exclamation mark is no longer a part of the band's name, I think the logo should be updated to reflect that. Anyone agree/disagree? - Riyukko^{( talk)} 06:04, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

They new logo up is the present one as of now that Panic has as an official logo. Knight Whitefire (talk) 15:07, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

Just an FYI the name field of the infobox is an inappropriate place for logos. This is in line with consensus at Template talk:Infobox Musical artist. Basically if a logo is noteworthy, it should be in its own image box in the article body next to a discussion of its significance. If it has no discussion, then it's strictly decorative and fails Wikipedia's policies on fair use of copyrighted images (and logos, even if you modify them or copy them by hand on your own, are copyrighted). Finally, stylized lettering taken from a piece of merchandise (album, t-shirt, sticker, etc.) are not logos. Bad Religion and Black Flag, for example, have/had logos. To my knowledge PatD does not have one. --IllaZilla (talk) 00:50, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

Dont add a logo just remove the "!". —Preceding unsigned comment added by Evilchickenb (talk • contribs) 03:09, 14 June 2008 (UTC)

Congrats

The coverage of Panic! at the Disco on Wikipedia is about ten times better than I thought it would be. I've contributed as much as I can, as much as I know, and I'd like to thank everyone who works on these articles, and those involved in the Panic at the Disco Wikiproject. (Which I'm also involved in.) I'd like to say thanks to the people who maintain the pages, like Knight Whitefire and just people who contribute to the pages in general, like K-bomb. JazzlineB (talk) 20:16, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

Definitely :)

Congrats and thanks to all for contributing, maintaining, peacekeeping, etc on such a highly viewed article.

It's a good one :) CattleGirl ^talk 09:49, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

Genres Again

Apparently, Knight Whitefire believes that a note in the genre section of the infobox saying to start a talk page discussion before changing the genres is not necessary. I believe it is very necessary because almost every day someone is changing the genres to pop, rock, thrashcore, etc. This note would definitely help slow down the influx of disruptive edits to the genres. It couldn't hurt so I see no reason for it to be removed. ╦ﺇ₥₥€Ԋ(^talk/_contribs) 05:31, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

There's obviously so much confusion about what genre they are because of the fact that there's not exactly a good genre that does describe them.

But I think the genres on their MySpace should be the ones used - Rock / Big Beat / Techno. Obviously the band wants to be called those genres if it's on their official MySpace. - Riyukko^{( talk)}

I think Pop-rock, Dance-punk, Big beat —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.129.103.212 (talk) 20:37, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

...and if the band wanted to be called Classical music we would agree with that too! Applying categories per what the band "wants" is not encyclopedic. Listen to some actual Big Beat bands. For example, Panic does not rely heavily on drum machines, or sampled music. Their MySpace self-description is most likely a diss to genre making and categorizing. - Steve3849 ^talk 17:00, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

I feel that they should be called alternative rock for this page, but keep Emo for the Fever page, and call P.O. classical rock, because as a whole alternative rock fits the bill whereas Emo only really applies to their first album, and classical rock most definitely applies to their second, and Pop Punk definitely doesn't belong though i don't deny the influences. —Preceding unsigned comment added by PhilipFU (talk • contribs) 06:37, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

They are definetely not Emo. Scroll down a bit and look for the Style sub-heading... read a bit. They say in an interview that emo is (a goddamned) BULLSHIT!!! PLZ learn a bit of english or get a pair of glasses plz. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 201.240.197.138 (talk) 22:05, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

It does not matter what we or the band its self think it comes down to what the public at large and really more importantly the music crtics think,i added emo and punk pop because i found a source that says so and the public for the most part considers them to be,it is not uncommon for a band to rage against the label the public or music critics has labeled them,Nirvana did not want to be called grunge or any label for that matter but in hind sight the term grunge stuck and that is what we remember them as,so basicaly just because the band themselves claim not to be emo does not mean they are not emo--Wikiscribe (talk) 13:00, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

Someone keeps posting that we should check 'allmusic.com' to see that emo and pop punk are listed as genres, when they are not. They are listed as styles. Rock is listed as their genre. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Allison 99 (talk • contribs) 02:47, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

yes because that is how all music breaks down genres there umbrella genre which is rock in this case and than there is there style of there particular genre in this case its emo and pop punk,in other words there genre and style is one in the same no need to be anal about it--Wikiscribe (talk) 03:58, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

Could they be emo, pop punk, AND alternative rock? I feel like they fit those three fine. I don't see why everyone should shoot down alternative rock as one of their genres. And I didn't realize I was being anal. I'm new to this whole thing. (Allison 99 (talk) 21:13, 3 June 2008 (UTC))

Panic! Website

I'm unregistered so I can't add to the page. I checked the Panic! website on the 2nd of January and it has a new jigsaw piece which leads to a link to their MySpace blog. On it, there's a message from them which mentions they're going to be recording at Abbey Road Studios in London. There's also a rough version of a song called 'We're So Starving' with the soundclips from the other two jigsaw pieces and the words 'You Don't Have To Worry'. Source code also reads 'We're So Starving'. Could someone please post this information and maybe a separate section about the website. Thanks. 81.99.24.95 (talk) 12:07, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

The information was already added yesterday. Timmeh^contribs 15:58, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

I just checked their website right now (january 7th, 2008) and it has changed once again. there are no more puzzle pieces. now its kind of like a crossword puzzle that goes like this: _P_A_T____D____________ and the title of the page is 01:10:08. also the source code says "Nice to see you again" so can someone please update. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.94.61.126 (talk) 02:41, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

I just looked again, guys... it now says _P_E_T____D____________. I know it's changed, because I printed it out before the change occured. Just thought I should let you know in case you hadn't seen it yet. --206.74.228.254 (talk) 23:13, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

Site changed again. like less than an hour ago (jan 9th) the top still looks like :_P_E_T____D____________. but now if you scroll down the screen the letters gradually fill in to spell: _Pretty._Odd._03:25:08_ and the source code says "Nice to see you again Sorry for being late Traffic was really bad Hope you weren't waiting too long" —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.94.61.126 (talk) 02:32, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

On Panic at the Disco's merch site there's an item referred to as 'image' and it has another puzzle piece like on the website http://store.fueledbyramen.com/albumview.asp?idproduct=50818 —Preceding unsigned comment added by Thisismeyes (talk • contribs) 01:41, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

If you look at the source for the fact that 12 pieces have been found, you will see that this one has already been found. Thanks anyway. Timmeh! 01:59, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

Can someone add information about the "final challenge?" Is it important enough? MagZness (talk) 05:32, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

Bring Back the Untitled Second album page

Well i personally never agreeded with its removal as it had just as much information as many other untitled future albums that are still on.Now that the website seems to confirm the release date and a release date for a single has been set the page should be brought back.Parralax (talk) 02:53, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

But the release date of the single is not proven, reliable, or true. However the release date's been out forever. Knight Whitefire (talk) 05:48, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

That's the single though, not the album. I think we have enough details now to create one. That also means we can move the viral campaign info onto the album page instead of it cluttering up the band page. Roxyr (talk) 19:56, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

Now there is an offcial title and a tour to promote scheduled.I'm going to recreate the pageParralax (talk) 22:34, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

Album Update

Although the band's next album wont be released till March 25, tracks and demos have been leaked as of January 4, 2008.

Source please? Venyx (talk) 06:06, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

They weren't leaked. 121.44.209.144 (talk) 04:20, 1 March 2008 (UTC)

2007-2008: Pretty. Odd. Clean Up

Who else agrees that this entire section needs to be cleaned up, rewritten and shortened? It's way too long, most of it is just unnecessary information. For example the whole source code/puzzle thing, all that needs to be said is that Panic started a viral marketing campaign ahead of the release of the album. This isn't a source for fans waiting for every bit of new info, it's an encyclopedia. Venyx (talk) 06:00, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

Agreed; I think there's much need of a clean up and possibly a rewrite. The formatting's also in need of revising. Album titles are unitalicized, which goes against MoS. Venyx, I wouldn't remove all of that content about this "viral marketing campaign"; I (personally) would leave details until the release of the album, then clean up and rewrite that section and move it to the Pretty. Odd. article. Qwerty (talk) 11:38, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

By the way, I've archived some of the talk on this page. Sorry for any inconvenience or any such thing. Qwerty (talk) 11:40, 13 January 2008 (UTC) They have also recently taken away the "!" in Panic!. Rumor is that it either died or ran away.

I second/third this. I was just coming in here to comment that that section in particular was entirely too detailed and unencyclopedic. I'm also skeptical about the quoting of random blogs when discussing musical styles. Let's stick with legitimate sources here. But I think the whole article could use a clean-up in this regard. 67.167.164.98 (talk) 02:00, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

As of Jan. 19, there is a second puzzle piece that can be seen by clicking on the first on the bands website. The puzzle now runs flash, and the page source now says "you might want to look around a bit first" —Preceding unsigned comment added by Marnett2005 (talk • contribs) 16:26, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

What the hell?13Tawaazun14 (talk) 19:05, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

Name change?

When did they start being called "Panic At the Disco" instead of "Panic! At the Disco"? I have not heard about a name change or anything similar. -- FatalError (talk | contribs) 03:39, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

The band officially dropped the ! in January, at the same time they revealed the name of Pretty. Odd.. --The Experimental Film (talk) 04:19, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

Bummer, I loved the ! --Panic!out (talk) 18:26, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

I agree with Panic!out. It was something different that other bands don't have. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.209.129.75 (talk) 18:59, 14 June 2008 (UTC)

US charts

I can't find any sources the say Pretty. Odd. has reached number two in the US.74.214.33.9 (talk) 16:03, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

I can't either, I can't seem to find any source that says how the album is doing! --Panic!out (talk) 18:26, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

There it is: http://www.billboard.com/bbcom/news/article_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=1003791337

A Fever sold...

2.2 million copies WORLDWIDE, not in the U.S. only. RIAA states that the album is certified Platinum, not 2x Multi-Platinum. Somebody please change that.

What happened to the picture?

There was a nice picture of the band, what happened to it? We need to have a picture!--Panic!out (talk) 17:25, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

Band member pics

Can we get some nice pictures of the band members on their individual pages? Ryan has a nice one, but Brendon, Jon and Spencer's are lacking. --Panic!out (talk) 17:32, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

Acronyms

While I understand that the acronyms at the top of the article are actually used when discussing the band, I do not think them relevant, certainly not in the introduction. If they are to be included in the article, I might suggest that they be placed in a section perhaps about fans or following. Josejuan05 (talk) 18:14, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

Although I do agree with you, if we changed it on this page then we would have to change it on all the band pages.That is just the way Wikipedians decided to make the pages. Mr. Green^{Hit Me Up} 18:18, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

Vandalism

In the Pretty. odd. section it says "ron burgandy" produced the record. but rob mathes did —Preceding unsigned comment added by 58.164.28.132 (talk) 05:40, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

I wouldn't call that vandalism.. maybe a misunderstanding. But there's been far worse false information about them. That's nothing in comparison. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.226.175.30 (talk) 15:17, 15 June 2008 (UTC)

check out the page now. some quarn has made a biiigggg mistake. he\she rekons that they are still panic! at the disco. THEY DROPPED THE ! FROM THEIR NAME. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 121.216.120.128 (talk) 01:04, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

Minor change to History section

I would like to propose a minor change to the "History" section. In the first paragraph, a sentence appears, reading:

Ross and Smith then created a band under the name of "Summer League", possibly a reference to the suburb in which they lived or possibly not, with childhood friends Brent Wilson, and Trevor who would later leave the band.

Not only is this grammatically awkward, it is also unencyclopedic. I would propose that if references cannot be added for either viewpoint, the reference to the origin of the name should be removed completely. Anyone else have an opinion on the matter? Tstreet (talk) 23:48, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

I can't find a reference for it, do as you will and delete it if you wish.71.179.227.101 (talk) 19:05, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

big vandalism on opening statement!!!

in the first paragraphs, it notes that the bands original name was jesu tities, but it never was —Preceding unsigned comment added by 58.168.97.137 (talk) 07:29, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

Given the kind of odd music these guys due, I'm not completely sure wheather it's vandalism or not. If it is, I'll remove it but if it's not I'd like to see the source for it. (13Tawaazun14 not signed in)71.179.227.101 (talk) 19:02, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

-my friend has an interveiw from feb. 2007, and it clearly states that their original name was "Pet Salamander" —Preceding unsigned comment added by 58.168.97.137 (talk) 06:58, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

That's good, but can you show me the source?71.179.227.101 (talk) 20:08, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

- Here is the source, of the name, just click the icon! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 58.168.97.137 (talk) 23:24, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

- Okay, so the icon dosent work. Here is the website: http://www.imeem.com/groups/al4oXNvw/blogs/ —Preceding unsigned comment added by 58.168.97.137 (talk) 23:26, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

Deleted, there is no way that can be anything but vandalism.13Tawaazun14 (talk) 23:48, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

- Actually, it was their band name at some point. Here's the source, and if you want to skip just to where they talk about it, go to around 6:10 on the video time. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JrAzK37Y81Y —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.240.162.217 (talk) 06:51, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

Tours

Would it be worth adding a list of Panic At The Disco's tours, eg. the Nothing Rhymes With Circus Tour and the Honda Civic Tour? The dates/year of the tour could also be included. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Abc1223 (talk • contribs) 13:27, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

No, because this is a biography of the band, not a fan site where one can find tour dates. You can find the dates on their official website. --Panic!out^{U've Been Discoed!} 16:39, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

Well, I think it would be alright if we put tour dates.. After all, it is still current information about the band. (L) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.209.129.75 (talk) 19:08, 14 June 2008 (UTC)

I don't mean tour dates, i just mean a list of their previous tours and the years they took place, for example the NRWC Tour (2006) and Honda Civic Tour (2008) etc. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Abc12223 (talk • contribs) 21:55, 14 June 2008 (UTC)

Jesus Titties

Fuck.. I swear it was not vandalism!! I saw a video where they were asked about it.. "Jesus Titties" lol. I will find it soon. JazzlineB (talk) 04:05, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

Please do. That shit doesn't sound right and there was no source, so really I didn't see how it could be anything but vandalism... but what the fuck right? If you can find the source then please add it.13Tawaazun14 (talk) 02:31, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

- Actually, it was their band name at some point. Here's the source, and if you want to skip just to where they talk about it, go to around 6:10 on the video time. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JrAzK37Y81Y (71.240.162.217 (talk) 15:49, 6 June 2008 (UTC))

It was also mentioned on stage on Brendon Urie's 21st birthday, at a concert. I saw a video of it. He was kind of tipsy...Thebluekazoo (talk) 22:32, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

Genre

Noting the Genre, Wikipedia has PATD marked as an "emo" band. Quote from http://www.punknews.org/article/20392:

In a recent discussion with NME, Panic! At the Disco frontman Brendan Urie cleared any confusion pertaining to his feelings on the genre known as "emo", or how the label is associated with his band.

It's ignorant! The stereotype is guys that are weak and have failing relationships write about how sad they are. If you listen to our songs, not one of them has that tone. Emo is bullshit! If people want to take it for the literal sense of the word, yes we're an emotional band, we put a lot of thought into what we do. People always try to stereotype us, but we don't fit the emo stereotype.

Clearly, PATD should NOT be classified under the "emo" genre.

What do you guys think?

Noitanod (talk) 01:59, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

I think you're right =) P@TD is not emo, at all. Can somebody who believes P@TD is emo please even give one song that makes them sound even remotely emo? That would be a big help. ps. My Chemical Romance is not emo either!♥ —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.209.129.75 (talk) 19:07, 14 June 2008 (UTC)

REFERENCE 2

Reference 2 is not needed. It only leads HERE. Whereas ref 1 leads to the SPECIFIC panic page. Please get rid of ref 2. But if you have a reason why you want to keep ref 2, please discuss it here. Thanks! SkaterBoy182 (talk) 15:07, 15 June 2008 (UTC)

PATD in Pop Culture

I think there should be a Pop Culture section box. They actually HAVE been used in pop culture. For example, In an episode of Hannah Montana, Jackson tells Robby that he's taking Sienna Grace to a Panic At The Disco concert. In another example, during VH1's I LOVE THE NEW MILLENIUM, Michael Ian Black disscusses trucker hats and Panic At The Disco by saying, "Oh, look at me..I wear trucker hats but I still listen to Panic At The Disco.." There are more refrences to them, but I can't remember them right now. I AM NOT AGAINST PANIC AT THE DISCO WHEN IT COMES TO THE HARSH COMMENTS OR REFRENCES ABOUT THEM!!! But I still think it's important to let people know that PATD is being refrenced to. Would someone mind putting it in? Yellowandbox (talk) 07:28, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

NOT EMO!!!

so.... the beatles are emo???? because shaggy hair cut,OBVIOUS the beatles NOT are emo!!!!!!!!!!,and Panic at the Disco too they are NOT Fucking EMO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!...

There is no such thing as emo...its just a urban legend —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.42.218.143 (talk) 08:36, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

Sorry, but this has been discussed before. The sources say they are emo, so on Wikipedia, they are emo. Period. Timmeh! 00:03, 2 July 2008 (UTC)

you jerk, if they were emo, it would be screaming and rocking. they are not emo, if they were... screamo and i dont hear any screamo. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 121.216.120.128 (talk) 23:10, 2 July 2008 (UTC)

Oh believe me.. the media has totally altered the genre Emo.. and wikipedia isn't know for it's correctness.. due to being edited by mis-informed idiots who use rubbish sources to cite there so called information. Anywho.. could someone please revert Panicatthedisco2008.jpg. Thanks -SpideR--83.217.170.161 (talk) 01:14, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

Wikipedia makes no clams to truth. See WP:V.13Tawaazun14 (talk) 04:24, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

Max59x: Hi, I just created a Wikipedia account to argue against the EMO label in this band. As said above this band is not freackin Emo, have you even heard their albuns?

Rolling stone referred it has a Emo-rock band and now it is a Emo-rock band? NO, don't act stupid and just change that.

Trust me I am just as frustrated as you. I hate that even though THEY THEMSELVES say they are not 'emo' and that "emo is

bullshit", that doesn't matter because some guy who writes articles for magazines says they are, so therefore they are. - It's ridiculous!!

I seriously do not understand how Panic at the Disco sounds or is emo. I mean their first album was so up-beat, it sounded like dance music, how is that emo?!

I think people just classify their genre by the way they LOOK.

It makes me sick.

76.195.57.210 (talk) 02:34, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

I personally don't think they are either, but this isn't really a great way to discuss it. Yes, people are classifying them by the way they look, welcome to the modern music industry. Zazaban (talk) 06:26, 13 July 2008 (UTC)

Emo

I suggest that Emo is removed from the genres as this is obviously untrue. If anyone can prove me wrong by showing me some 'emo' panic at the disco lyrics then you are welcome. 82.7.41.213 (talk) 19:50, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

its what reliable sources say not what you think is truth--Wikiscribe (talk) 21:53, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

Really? How does that make any sense? Look at the definition of Emo on here, and tell me how they are. Even 3rd wave they don't fit, they don't fit at all. People call them EMO because of the way they look, it's bullshit, but then again..Wikipedia doesn't claim truth, yet it's an encyclopedic website - go figure. 71.59.187.238 (talk) 10:44, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

I have to agree with you --Panic at the Disco is hardly Emo. But please try to avoid using profanity in your comments. It violates Wikipedia's policy of civility. And I'm not sure what you meant by your last comment, about Wikipedia not claiming truth. Wikipedia is an attempt to summarize and distribute knowledge, and knowledge is not synonymous with truth. Philosophy, religion, and countless scientific theories are a few examples of subjects that make knowledge-based claims that exist beyond the realm of truth. Furthermore, subjective assesments (e.g. classification such as musical genres) hardly ever "claim truth." Though I'm still not exactly sure what you meant by this. ŁittleÄlien¹⁸² (_talk\^contribs) 23:54, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

Please read the first paragraph from this wikipedia policy once again you may not think they are emo but reliable third party sources say other wise its not what we think is truth WP:VERIFY--Wikiscribe (talk) 01:27, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

I'm not sure whom you are speaking to, but I have read the entire WP:V article and your point about truth seems to only reiterate the point I was making. Regardless, however, of this point, the question remains whether are not there are any reliable sources that state PATD as being EMO. You keep referring to these sources, but have yet to reveal what they are and where they are located. So, where are they? ŁittleÄlien¹⁸² (_talk\^contribs) 02:16, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

people call them emo by the way they look?they never looked emo,they dressed up as theatre dudes and yeh,brendan wore eyeliner because he.was.dressing.up.as.a.theatre.person not an 'emo'. and calling people emo by the way they look is a crap source.robert smith looked emo-but the cure were not emo or goth. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Nirvanarox55 (talk • contribs) 10:59, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

Picture

What happened to their picture? It was an accurate and current one of them, so why was it removed? --Bottle-Of-Musical-Joy (talk) 23:40, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

Because Wikipedia doesn't care. 71.59.187.238 (talk) 10:45, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

Actually, the image was probably copy-righted and, as such, was deleted. It would be nice if someone could upload a picture that they personally took (perhaps a concert-shot or something similar). Then we wouldn't have to worry about copyright problems. ŁittleÄlien¹⁸² (_talk\^contribs) 18:14, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

Can someone give me credit for my pictures that they've used on here? Both the picture of Brendon and the photo of the circus performers were taken from my Flickr and I'd appreciate it if you could link to my Flickr page --> [1] 208.51.73.51 (talk) 23:27, 1 August 2008 (UTC) Ashley