Talk:Pankration

Modern equivalents

Every culture has martial arts, including the germanic cultures. The fighting area for the Pankration was likely as broad as that of the Wrestling, namely one PLETHRON square (a plethron being 100 Greek feet), which by no coincidence happens to be the typical width of a Greek foot-racing track. I don't like the frequent mention of the 'modern' Pankration, since this system has nothing in comon with the ancient one other than its name. For example, chokes are not allowed in the modern one. The REAL modern Pankration is the PRIDE Fighting Championships in Japan. The Ultimate Fighting Championships in the U.S.A. started out with the same rules as the ancient Pankration, but now has many restrictions for safety such as no kneeing on the ground etc. Like it or not, modern pankration has been name as such. I believe that we should include a section on modern pankration in this article.Shardakar 13:29, 15 April 2007 (UTC) who wrote about the Harappa thing? Harappa isnt over 4000 years old according to archaeological evidence and the Indus valley civilisations are different from the advent of mordern Indian civilisation, much like the difference between Mycanean Greeks and the Classical Greekz from Homer's time onwards. Anyway, the Indians (Aryan types) and Greeks descended from the same source, the Proto-Indo-European people, martial arts might be a part of that shared heritage, the Germanic people dont have martial arts but their culture is founded upon war.

Harappa was inhabited at least 5,000 years ago. The cultural links or otherwise between the Indus Valley civilisation and later Indian civilisations are still being debated. 80.47.170.27 14:05, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

How can you say that Alexanders campaigns in India were not successful? he won 2 major battles and didnt lose one. It only stopped being Greek territory once Alexadners successors ceded it back to an indian ruler in exchange for elephants. The greeks influence was enough to leave Greek speaking peoples there which have lasted to the present day so I dont believe you can say the campaigns in india werent successful and therefore the impace wasnt as great in india

The Kalash language to which you refer is classified as Dardic, a subfamily of Indo-Iranian, and not a dialect of Greek. Alexander's conquests did leave a Greek influence there, but not enough for Greek-speaking peoples to last to the present day.--JFD 20:09, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

• Ex nihil 23:53, 6 February 2006 (UTC) Agree merge Merging with Ancient Greek Wrestling would work well and improve Wiki. AGW article should be included under Pankration under L2 heading 'Rules' + minor editing. The articles are almost mutually exclusive in content. Retain Pankration and divert AGW.

DERIVITIVES? I was watching a series on HISTORY CHANNEL that deals with different national hand-to-hand combat styles (martial arts). When the series explored the history of Pankration, the asertion was made that Pankration is the basis of the Asian martial arts. According to the narration, the armies of Alexander the Great were not only trained with weapons, but trained to fight without weapons. Alexander reached as far as India before turning back, but the skills his soldiers brought remained with the locals. Over time these skills were passed on to other generations and further developed into other systems such as Kung Fu. Would there be any truth to this? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.188.249.132 (talk) 00:21, 15 April 2009 (UTC)

plato

Someone should ad a mention that Plato and Aristotle were pankration participants, with Plato being a double olympic winner. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 70.230.203.67 (talk) 17:46, August 22, 2007 (UTC)

Disagree with merging this article with ancient greek wrestling

I disagree with merging pankration with ancient greek wrestling, because this is very different sport. It is first mixed martial arts sport in history and has the same amount in common with wrestling then with boxing. There was also boxing in ancient greek, but we dont consider it part of wrestling.

I concur - they were different sports in the ancient games. Adam Bishop 05:37, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

I disagree as well. It's like saying amateur wrestling should be put as a subsection of mixed martial arts. Instead the article on ancient greek wrestling should be expanded and improved. ---Marcus- 10:11, 11 February 2006 (UTC)

I disagree too. While I think that A LOT of work needs to be done on this article, to move pankration into another article would be a diservice. Ancient Pankration was a huge sport in the Ancient Greco/Roman world, and was actually the most popular. While it blended aspects of Greek Wrestling and Boxing, it is neither one nor the other - it is something completely unique. It would be like saying baseball should be folded into the article on cricket or rounders. Silly. BUT a LOT of work needs to be done on this article for sure. I recommend that two whole subsections be created within it - one for Ancient Pankration and one for Modern. But here I also disagree with "Ex Nihil" above... modern pankration is to prevelent to be ignored and should be mentioned. It is impossible to know exactly how pankration was practiced in the ancient world, so most of the modern pantration schools take their liberty with the style. But the same is true of Tai Kwon Do - it, too, is based on a style that was dead for centuries and resurrected. Doesn't mean we should not mention modern TKD in Wiki. ---jcollura- 20:14, 17 February 2006 (UTC)

I disagree highly. Pankration and ancient Greek wrestling are two seperate things. Greco-Roman wrestling does not incorporate any striking technique, as pankration apparently does. This might seem minor to some, but it is a huge difference. --1:37, 18 February 2006 (UTC)

I disagree too. And I also think, that many improvements should be done to the article, but unlike jcollura I think there should be only "ancient" pankration, not "modern" one. Modern one is called MMA, NHB, or vale tudo which already have article (and mixed martial arts article is quite good one).

I disagree as well. They are simply two diffrent sports. Should we combine Boxing and Karate?

I also Disagree. Its like saying Rugby should be added to football. But that point has already been made. I just wanted to put my voice forward. - H4eafy

I Disagree, everyone has disagreed so-far, who ever posted this talk in the first place, give up if you havn't already! Mushrooms777 23:39, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

Oppose - Different sports in ancient Greece, merging would lead to confusion. --Nate1481(^t/_c) 16:12, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

I am not sure I understand why is it classified as "Mixed"

More precisely I don't see from which particular martial arts it is mixed, multiplied or multi-disciplined, being 2000 years old. From origins: "Heroes Herakles and Theseus invented the pankration as a result of using both wrestling and boxing". I don't think, however "boxing" and "wrestling" refer to martial arts by Herakles and Theseus, but to general forms of adversarial interaction of striking and grabbing. Even if P was developed by combined even more ancient types it is seems to be the oldest known. Therefore I don't see that referring to this martial art in its original form as to mixed is justified. --Bete (talk) 20:04, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

To be honest it's because it's the best option we have. It is classified has having a mixed focus (i.e. it doesn't just focus on just grappling or just striking) not classified as mixed martial arts. That said, that fact it did combine the skills covered in the wrestling and boxing of the time (both seperate sports in the ancient Olympics) means it could fit under MMA in that sense. The reason for linking to MMA from there is that it is the closest modern equivalent, of pankration so will illuminate the subject for a reader. --Nate1481( ^t/_c) 10:23, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

Pronunciation

Can the pronunciation of this word be added? Does it rhyme with "education" or is it "pan-kra-tee-on"? Badagnani (talk) 05:51, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

The latter one. Omnipedian (talk) 05:17, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

I heard it pronounced pang-KRAE-shun on the Human Weapon TV show when they did this fighting system. 75.157.58.25 (talk) 06:12, 25 March 2009 (UTC)

Yes, you will hear that a lot, but it is an Anglicization. The proper Greek pronunciation is pan-KRA-tee-on.Nojamus (talk) 04:27, 14 December 2009 (UTC)

Sourcing for this article

This article is very badly sourced. I would like to see specific footnotes for certain claims which I find incredibly specious. For example: (a) The notion that the pankratiasts, like practitioners of Chinese martial arts, had a concept of "internal energy" which they developed through special exercises. (b) The idea that Asian martial arts must have ultimately had their roots in the pankration, which was spread to India by Alexander the Great. I've often protested that Europe had its own martial arts without Asian influence. Common sense would dictate that people on both continents were capable of figuring out basically efficient methods of punching, kicking, and choking each other independently. (c) The statement that the pankration was the core of a Greek soldier's training. My history professor told me that the core of the Greek soldiers' training was learning how to fight in rank with spears and shields. --Halloween jack (talk) 18:41, 13 September 2008 (UTC)

I agree with the first two observations; not sure about the third. Two very interesting extracts from the Greek 'pedia's article concerning Pankration are these: Aristotle's definition (Rhetorics Α [5-14] 1361β) : «ὁ δὲ θλίβειν καὶ κατέχειν παλαιστικός, ὁ δὲ ὦσαι τῇ πληγῇ πυκτικός, ὁ δ' ἀμφοτέροις τούτοις παγκρατιαστικός», and Pausanias' description of the sport (Η [10.7.8]; it can be found here). Maybe we should include them if the article is to acquire some decent sources concerning its Ancient History part. On the modern part now; recently User:12.8.34.199 has unjustifiably deleted this unsourced statement according to which the pancratiast Aris Makris (Άρης Μακρής) is the person who made Pankration popular. I don't know if this is true (Makris' name is indeed quite famous) but whether he is to be included in the article or not should be discussed first here in the talk page. Omnipedian (talk) 05:17, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

Unreferenced statements

As one can find in el:Πυρρίχιος and in Byzantine_dance#Popular_Dances:Pyrrichios, Pyrrhic (Πυῤῥίχιος) wasn't only a metrical foot, but also a kind of war-dance (πολεμικός χορός), which is said to have its origins in the Ancient Greece and the practice of Pankration. However, I've never come across any source that confirms this or that Pyrrhics (often spelled as Pyrrics in this context) were then what kata are to the Japonic (Japanese and Okinawan) martial arts, so for the moment, I tagged this statement with {{fact}}. Omnipedian (talk) 05:41, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

It is stated that Lucian (an Assyrian Grecophone) gave a description of Pankration in a work of his. The only reference to the sport, I have found so far, in his works is from his biography of Demonax: Demonax, c 49 (in French); I retrieved this info from here. Whoever can, please, give more details about the ancient text whose translation appears in the article. As for the modern "Mu Tau Pankration", it may be notable or not; however, its addition to the article has apparently been made by its inventor, in the form of vanity press, which is, of course, a blatant violation of NPOV. --Omnipedian (talk) 07:48, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

User:Kapros has recently provided refs for the section Aspects of Pankration Preparation and Practice except for the following passage: "...methods included among others the periodization of training; a wealth of regimes for the development of strength, speed-strength, speed, and endurance; specialized training for the different stages of competition (i.e., for anō pankration and katō pankration), and methods for learning and engraining techniques. Interestingly, among the multitude of the latter were also training tools that appear to be very similar to modern martial arts Forms or kata, and were known as cheironomia and anapale. Punching bags (kōrykos κώρυκος "leather sack") of different sizes were used for striking practice and the hardening of the body and limbs. Herbal medicines were also used". I can't really argue about removing it since in it is included some very useful information; I just want to note that it remains unref'd after all these months. --Omnipaedista (talk) 08:45, 9 January 2009 (UTC) (formerly known as Omnipedian)

The Russians

The Byzantine Empire took in many Slavic refugees under its wing who were escaping the depredations of the Ostrogoths, who later became known as the "Vikings." All Scandinavian "norse" peoples, descend from the Goths, whose origins are in southern Sweden. From Sweden, they spread to Norway, Northern Germany, Denmark, Finland, Russia and throughout eastern Europe where they displaced the native Slavs. If Pankration was practiced in Byzantine times, as no doubt it was because hand to hand combat has been required of military types throughout human history, odds are very good, the sport was taught to the Slavs.

The history of Russia, in fact began with the fall of Byzantium; Slavic refugees, fled to what is now Russia, and they took with them the culture of Byzantium. "Russian Folk Wrestling" has always included a combination of both strikes, and grappling techniques. Later on, it absorbed Judo and became Sambo. It is possible that the true origins of "Russian Folk Wrestling" in fact lie with Pankration. Of course, please do not take what I said seriously; what I posted, is a subject of serious historical controversy that may require a more serious academic look. I mean you can't change historical fact, based on what some "internet geek" wrote on wikipedia, some interested Russian dude would have to do some serious research and find out for sure, if Russian Folk wrestling is indeed a relative of Pankration, a derivative style. If this is true, then it is entirely possible that "MMA" may in fact be 2,500 years old. Again though this is not a subject for "hobby" wikipedia research, it needs a serious academic look. If there are any interested parties out there, you may want to look into it who knows, it may give the sport of MMA some "respectability" and "pedigree," even. 67.148.120.126 (talk) 12:52, 10 June 2009 (UTC)stardingo747

Spelling

someone who cares about this article should standardize the spelling, and mention that it's also spelled "pangration" and "pancration" and even "pancratium". We shouldn't use more than one in the text.

Alas I haven't the energy tonight. BobShair (talk) 04:46, 26 August 2011 (UTC)

Unsourced Claims removed

"However, pankration was more than just an event in the athletic competitions of the ancient Greek world; it was also part of the arsenal of Greek soldiers – including the famous Spartan hoplites and Alexander the Great's Macedonian phalanx."

No doubt pankration - like boxing and wrestling - helped Greek men develop the strength, agression, and courage needed to go into battle in the phalanx. But I challenge you to find any primary - or even secondary - source that states that hoplites ever used pankration techniques during battle. The idea of choking someone out on a battlefield full of spears and swords - especially when you consider that the Greeks fought in close order formation, not in Homeric duels - belongs in a silly hollywood gunfu movie but certainly has nothing to do with the reality of Classical or Hellenic Greek warfare. Reading things like this on Wikipedia makes me want to blow my brains out. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.242.181.66 (talk) 17:24, 14 October 2012 (UTC)

a notice

it is spelled pagration and not pankration or pancration or pancratium

By what authority or reference? Also, SIGN your contributions, please. rowley (talk) 17:26, 31 December 2019 (UTC)

Death considered a win

Wouldn't a death be considered a loss? Perhaps rephrase to remove ambiguity. 72.219.162.127 (talk) 22:01, 17 July 2023 (UTC)