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The article says the armor plate was homogenous, and also that it was face-hardened. Which is it? I thought most German armor was face-hardened. DMorpheus 16:19, 7 December 2005 (UTC)
- I'm pretty sure that the Germans didn't routinely face harden their armoured plate until 1941/2, so I'd be surprised if the PzI had face hardened armour. That said, I don't have the means to verufy that so if someone can prove me wrong then go right ahead. Getztashida 11:46, 19 September 2006 (UTC)
- In my re-write I decided not to include what kind of steel was used - none of my sources specify. JonCatalan 02:49, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
I happily passed this - with flying colours! The only obvious way I can see to improve the article is a rewrite of the 'Second World War' section, which reads a bit too much like an account of the history of Panzers in the relevant campaigns, and not focused enough on the role of tha Panzer I in particular. Keep up the good work! The Land 21:23, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
- As a second opinion, everything looks good. I'd like to see the tanks given to Spain section turned into prose, but I don't midn it as it is now.--Wizardman 17:03, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
- The World War 2 section has indeed to be completely rewritten with a focus on the (after September 1939 very minor) role of the PzKpfw I in it. Also the article would gain much by not treating Perrett as a serious source. It isn't :o). I would strongly advise to consult the works of Spielberger, Ellis and Jentz.--MWAK 06:31, 26 May 2007 (UTC)
Translation of "light tractor"
While reading the article I (as a german) realized that the term "light tractor" was translated with "Leichtertraktor". The correct german term is "Leichttraktor". Greetings, Lars —Preceding unsigned comment added by 22.214.171.124 (talk) 09:44, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
This article has been reviewed as part of Wikipedia:WikiProject Good articles/Project quality task force. I believe the article currently meets the criteria and should remain listed as a Good article. I've given it a slight copyedit, but otherwise this is an excellent article. The article history has been updated to reflect this review. Regards, Jackyd101 (talk) 09:41, 18 June 2008 (UTC)
- Is there a link to the reassessment? The reason I haven't worked on this article further is because my sources are in San Diego, California, but my body is in Madrid, Spain. So, until I can get my sources over here, or buy them again, I can't really work on the history section. JonCatalan (talk) 09:45, 18 June 2008 (UTC)
A couple of issues:
- "no less than a quarter of Germany's tanks were unavailable due to maintenance issues or enemy action" Clarification of how many each would be useful...
- Sov 45mm was reportedly best AT gun of the era; in Kogun, IIRC. It bears checking & adding.
- Unfortunately, my sources don't tell me how many tanks of each were unavailable due to maintenance - just that general figure. As per the 45mm gun, it probably was, but I don't have that source or a source that states that it was the best anti-tank gun of the era (well, it would be easy to assume so, but I don't have any source that I could cite). As per some of the changes you made - normally, tensioner and idler wheel are one in the same. JonCatalán (talk) 05:30, 4 August 2008 (UTC)
Mind your Panzer I’s
Standard English rules are to pluralize letters using apostrophes, to prevent confusion: “mind your p’s and q’s.” I suggest same rule should be applied to the capital I used for the Roman numeral in Panzer I, otherwise Panzer Is looks like “panzer is” or “Panzer One Ess.”
The use of the slightly awkward plural can also be reduced by rewriting for Panzer I tanks, Panzers, or using the model name in the singular: the Panzer I was tasked.... —Michael Z. 2008-08-15 16:07 z
- Quite right, but this is one of the rare exceptions, which most style manuals recommend. It's mind your a’s, i’s, and u’s—not as, is, and us. Likewise, Panzer Is is odd-looking and potentially confusing. (Another danger is mistaking a KV-1S tank for several ordinary KV-1’s—as with the KV-8S. Also, there's an IS-2M and a different IS-2m.) —Michael Z. 2008-08-23 07:39 z
- I'm sorry, standard English rules are to use apostrophes only for possessives and abbreviations, NEVER for plurals. The common misuse of apostrophes for plurals, even those ending in Roman numerals, is a sign of the all too common illiteracy endemic in technology based fora like Wiki. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 126.96.36.199 (talk) 03:44, 24 February 2010 (UTC)
Data was referenced
Hi! I edited that page and changes were removed - explanation - "data had been already referenced". I also gave references and these sources are far more reliable than those which had been used previously. I used Hahn and Jentz who are basing on a German OKH report from 07.10.1940 which is giving a number of at least 832 tanks lost in combat as for that day (this includes 320 Pz-I, 259 Pz-II, 40 Pz-III, 76 Pz-IV, 77 Pz-35(t), 13 PzBef-III (according to Jentz and Fritz Hahn), 7 PzBef38(t), 34 other PzBefs, unknown number of Pz-38(t)) - but this report may be incomplete and it includes only combat casualties anyway. So no 650 tanks were lost in combat, but at least 832 - as I corrected it.
Furthermore - it is estimated that around 25% of all German Panzer I-s engaged in Poland had broken during the course of the Polish Campaign.
I also corrected ammount of Wounded in Action and German overall casualties - data was removed. Number of Polish dead, wounded and captured CANNOT be compared with number given there previously (40,000 casualties), because - this number - does NOT include any prisoners of war. Poles captured a dozen or so or even few dozens of German soldiers during the campaign - but all of them were recaptured by the Germans and by the Soviets before the end of the campaign.
If you compare, compare number of Polish dead/missing and wounded with number of German dead/missing and wounded.
The highest given official figures for German casualties are:
5029 MIA - all reported dead later
Total: 55828 (not 40,000)
This number of WIA is taken from the book "Wojna Obronna Polski 1939", page 851 - it is based on German daily reports from regiments and it seems to be the most reliable of all datas refering to WIA. It gives a breakdown of these losses for each Army - which is as follows:
3. Army - 4,768
4. Army - 2,258 - only to 25.09.1939
8. Army - 5,840
10. Army - 13,096
14. Army - 7,767
OKL - 407
Notice that data above must be incomplete - there are no WIA from disposal units of Army Groups, disposal units of OKH and reserves, which were not subordinated to any army above.
"5029 MIA - all reported dead later"
This number is also incomplete - "Wojna Obronna Polski 1939" also states, that number of Missing in Action and Missing from 8. Army was unknown and was not reported properly by the Germans, because exact number of MIA and Missing from 8. Army was not known.
"3. Army - 4,768 WIA
4. Army - 2,258 WIA - only to 25.09.1939"
According to "Guderian" by Kenneth Macksey, pages 88 and 92 - 4. Army lost 8,000 soldiers and Army Group "North" lost 15,000 soldiers.
Another thing corrected by me was amount of German Panzer-Divisionen in Poland. There were NO 6 Panzer-Divisions - there were 7 Panzer Divisions in Poland. There were also 4 light divsions and 2 independent tank battalions. Total strength of all German units armed with tanks engaged in Poland was not 2600 tanks (as was previously written), but around 2700 (as I corrected it) - here is a detailed breakdown of these numbers (strength as on 1st of September):
Unit - exact number of tanks (number of tank battalions in unit):
3. Panzer-Division - 394 (5)
4. Panzer-Division - 341 lub 357 (4)
5. Panzer-Division - 335 (4)
2. Panzer-Division - 323 (4)
1. Panzer-Division - 309 (4)
Panzer-Division "Kempf" - 164 (2)
10. Panzer-Division - 151 (2)
1. Leichte-Division - 227 (3)
2. Leichte-Division - 162 (2)
3. Leichte-Division - 84 (1)
4. Leichte-Division - 76 lub 62 (1)
I./23. Panzer-Regiment - 76 (1)
I./10. Panzer-Regiment - 74 (1)
Schliesslehrgang - 27
62. Batalion Saperów - 7
Technische Uffz. Lehrgang - 2
Pionier Lehr und Versuchs Battalion – 1
All together German tanks sent against Poland: 2753
I want to return to the case of men casualties once again:
Different German official statistics were reporting different figures - and all of them were incomplete - Rudiger Overmans writes about that - he gives a tabel of statistics (only numbers of KIA):
Tabel from Overmans below:
Overmans - "Deutsche militärische Verluste im Zweiten Weltkrieg" - pages 54 - 55
1. Tabel includes only casualties suffered due to enemy action. It concerns only combat casualties and only those suffered due to enemy action, not any friendly fire, accidents, died of illnes, suicides, etc.
2. According to Overmans in report from 30.08.1944 they admitted, that these are not all casualties - numbers are incomplete - and they admitted, that numbers will grow up after further more carefull counting in the future.
3. Data of WED, Sanitary Inspection and IVb includes Waffen-SS casualties. Data of WASt - does not include it.
4. Data of Sanitary Inspection includes DoW members of other military forces who died in Heer hospitals (but only up to a certain date !!). It does not include members of Heer who died in hospitals of other military forces at all.
5. Numbers given by IVb concern only members of Feldheer.
6. Numbers given by other institutions - if they concern members of Heer - they concern members of all Heer (not only Feldheer).
7. All of these numbers does not include Kriegsmarine casualties.
8. All of these numbers does not include casualties of Polizei, Grenschutz, SS, other para-miltary formations, formations like "Kampfverband Ebbinghaus", different "K-Trupps" and "Sabotage-Trupps", other German diversion units (subordinated to Department II of Abwehra), "V Column" - etc., etc. - and so on ...
9. All of these numbers does not include Luftwaffe and units subordinated to OKL (also AA defence) casualties.
10. All of these numbers include only casualties suffered up to a certain date - only casualties in September 1939 (probably up to around 25th - few days more or less - of September 1939) - and last German combat casualties in the Poland Campaign were suffered on 8th of October 1939 (OKH communicate says, that on 8th of October last parts of SGO "Polesie" surrendered to the Germans which is considered as the ending date of the Poland Campaign by the Poles).
11. Data given by KTB der Truppe includes only numbers taken from Regimental war / combat journals.
WASt = Deutsche Dienststelle (WASt)
If it comes to my corrections of the article again:
Data about casualties of Soviet armour (42 - 43 irrevocably destroyed tanks, 150 lost in combat all together, and further around 300 lost due to breakdowns) was taken from this site:
Number of Germans irrecovable casualties was the official one (236 reported in September) + my own estimations from the following months (because many tanks damaged in Poland were reported impossible to repair during the following months, not in September - which is often forgotten). I was basing on Jentz's figures - book "Panzertruppen" - showing number of casualties in the following months (before the French campaign) - and this is what I established:
If it comes to Totalausfalle (write-offs, irrecovable losses), Jentz lists the following amount of write-offs between October 1939 and April 1940:
Pz.Kw. 1 - 248
Pz.Kw. 2 - 89
Pz.Kw. 35 - 52
Pz.Kw. 3 - 40
Pz.Kw. 4 – 6
All together: 435
Pz.Kw.1 – 248 pieces written-off in this period – this most probably includes:
8 pieces written-off in Norway, 38 rebuilt for SIG 33, 132 rebuilt for PzJg = 178 pieces
This probably includes too:
20 pieces renovated in April 1940 = 20 pieces
But – I’m not shure if renovated tanks were being written-off also.
= 178 – 198 pieces total
Pz-I which left as additional Totalausfalle due to the Polish Campaign:
50 – 70 pieces
Pz.Kw.2 – 89 pieces written-off in this period – this most probably includes:
2 pieces written-off in Norway, 43 rebuilt for Flammpanzer, 4 pieces rebuilt for Bruckenleger, 2 pieces possibly (?) written-off due to winter exercises = 49 – 51 pieces.
This possibly includes too:
18 pieces renovated in April 1940 = 18 pieces
Pz-II which left as additional Totalausfalle due to the Polish Campaign:
20 to 22 pieces - 38 to 40 pieces
Pz.Kw.4 – 6 pieces.
Pz-IV which left as additional Totalausfalle due to the Polish Campaign:
Pz.Kw.3 – 40 pieces – this may possibly include:
1 piece possibly (?) written-off due to winter exercises, 34 pieces sent to general renovation before sending them to training units – of course only if those 34 pieces were written-off (which is very doubtfull) – and one more thing is that I don’t know when they were sent to those schools and to this renovation.
Anyway – number of Pz-III which left as additional Totalausfalle due to the Polish Campaign is:
5 to 6 pieces – 39 – 40 pieces
Pz.Kw.35 – 52 pieces
I know that 26 pieces of Pz.Kw.35 were sent to general renovation and later sold to Bulgaria, BUT:
These tanks were from 11. Pz.Rgt. and were sent to Pilzno for renovation before the war started (on 18th of August 1939 Bulgars after visit in Padeborn agreed for buying them). Beginning of war extended duration of their renovation to beginnings of 1940.
So – even if it happened that tanks which were sent for renovation were being written-off – even then we must remember that those tanks were sent for renovation in August of 1939, not in period October 1939 – April 1940.
So from the initial number – 52 – we can either substract 26 (which is doubtful because they could also be written off in August 1939), or nothing – 0.
Number of Totalausfalle of tanks Pz.Kw.35 which left for the Polish Campaign then is:
26 – 52 pieces
However, I have some doubts if there was no an additional group of 26 Pz.Kw.35 tanks, which was sent for general renovation in this period – apart from those 26 which had been sent for renovation in August 1939 before sending them to Bulgaria in March 1940 (so they might have been also written-off). Then number of Pz.35s which left for Poland would possibly be: 0 – 26 pieces.
Total number of additional irrecovably lost tanks which left for Poland is:
102 to 105 pieces – 205 to 208 pieces.
OR - if number of additional Pz.Kw.35 was 0 - 26 (as I wrote - I have some doubts here about tanks sent for renovation):
If that number was 0:
76 to 79 pieces - 179 to 182 pieces
236 (this is a number given by Jentz for tanks written-off due to casualties in Poland untill - 20th - I think - of September) + 102 to 105 – 205 to 208 =
= 338 to 341 – 441 to 444 as irrecovable losses in Poland Campaign
OR - if additional number of Pz.Kw.35 was only 0 - 26:
= 312 to 315 - 415 to 418 as irrecovable losses in Poland Campaign
To this we must add additional - at least - 43 Soviet tanks as irrecovable Soviet casualties in Poland Campaign.
Here some interesting links:
Regards, Domen =
Panzer I pulling a train?
From Perrett's German Light Panzers 1932-1942, pp30-31 - "Worse, the autumn rains created a sea of mud in which only tanks could move with difficulty; many of the less combat-worthy PzKpfw Is and IIs found themselves towing trains of three or four lorries through axle-deep slime so that communications could be kept open."188.8.131.52 (talk) 12:32, 2 July 2009 (UTC)Charles
- See comments above about Perret. While he has authored several popular tank books, he is not a serious historian and I've found contradictory statements within single books of his. My favorite is in the Osprey "Allied Tank Italy" in which he describes the M4A1 76mm as being muzzle-heavy on one page and breech-heavy on another.
- Regards, DMorpheus (talk) 13:15, 2 July 2009 (UTC)
Einbau Waffe 141 was an odd weapon. A semi-automatic, belt fed weapon firing the 7.92 x 94 german anti-tank rifle round. An earlier weapon, the MG141 had been fully automatic but the barrel wear cause by the large cartridge to calibre ratio had been extreme.
- RobertMfromLI | User Talk STP2: Producer/Gaffer/Webmaster 02:58, 21 February 2010 (UTC)
- Ooops... thanks Ed. RobertMfromLI | User Talk STP2: Producer/Gaffer/Webmaster 03:17, 21 February 2010 (UTC)
- A featured article should be locked against vandalism, in order to show newcomers to Wikipedia that this encyclopedia is something to be taken seriously, and not just a frivolous internet toy. Harvey Henkelmann (talk) 22:40, 21 February 2010 (UTC)
Would this article benifit from a section on surviving tanks, such as that in the Mark I tank article, or are there too many survivors to make such a section practical? Mjroots2 (talk) 14:00, 21 February 2010 (UTC)
I think I recognize these things from Commandos: Behind Enemy Lines! Specifically, in Mission 7, Chase of the Wolves, you get to drive one of these things around. It's not too good at blowing up stuff like enemy cannons or tanks, due to its light armament, but it can take out enemy infantry pretty well, and it's pretty resistant to small arms. Tisane (talk) 00:33, 22 February 2010 (UTC)
Deep in the back-most recesses of my mind, I recall that before WWII began, there was a rumor among Polish soldiers (likely held over from the days when the Germans were making at least a pretense of abiding by the Treaty of Versailles) that German tanks had cardboard "armor", and that this belief, once Poland was invaded, encouraged attacks that proved to be foolhardy (cavalry charges, etc.)--possibly hastening the end of the Polish army as a fighting force. Can anybody find something on this? --Piledhigheranddeeper (talk) 19:34, 23 February 2010 (UTC)
OK, that's the cavalry charge sidelight. What about the cardboard (etc.) rumor? (the real point of the question--bad intelligence about the armored units led to particular success on their part) --Piledhigheranddeeper (talk) 21:19, 23 February 2010 (UTC)
- There might have been a rumor that they were using mild steel or thin sheet steel in place of armor (those were used for mock-ups and prototypes), but I can't find any evidence of such. Nobody in their right mind would have claimed that the tanks were using cardboard armor.
- That said, a good shot from a heavy machine gun or anti-tank rifle would go through the side armor of a Panzer I, as would a hit from almost any artillery piece. --Carnildo (talk) 22:38, 24 February 2010 (UTC)
An interesting and quite complete article! However, what I was wondering while reading it: What happened to the tanks after being discharged by the Wehrmacht? Some of them were used for the Panzerjäger I, ok, but what about the rest (i.e. most of them)? Scrapped? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 184.108.40.206 (talk) 19:35, 9 February 2011 (UTC)