Talk:Pashupati

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The Pashupati seal from Mojenjo-daro shows a male figure seated cross-legged in a meditative Yogic posture. His head, however, is surmounted not by stag's antlers (that's the Celtic Cernunnos!) but with large, arching waterbuffalo horns. -- Kalipadma

What's The Diff[edit]

Is there no difference between Pashupati and Bhava ?

(Lunarian 01:19, 24 February 2007 (UTC))

Although, out of various meanings, one of the meanings of Bhava is Shiva in general, this meaning is not relavant in the context of Pashupati seal found at Mohenjadaro, a site belonging to Indus Valley Civilisation.Rayabhari (talk)05:23, 27 June 2012 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Pashupati.jpg[edit]

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Title versus content[edit]

This article seems to have strayed far from the remit implied by its title. An article on "Pashupati" should surely be about Pashupati as a title and function of Shiva as "Lord or protector of Animals". This one has become a digressive article on the Mohenjo-daro seal known - in this article at least - as the "Pashupati seal". The article cites various sources which, taken as a whole, make clear that this identification is far from certain. It's speculative, disputed and in some sources, dismissed. If the seal's notable in its own right, it should have its own article, and any scholarly debate should be elucidated there. Here, it surely should have no more than a brief subsection or footnote, per WP:DUE. And what is implied, exactly, by the claimed resemblance of the figure on this seal to the so-called Cernunnos figure on the Gundestrup Cauldron? Haploidavey (talk) 12:25, 3 August 2012 (UTC)

The article history shows that most of these potentially misleading connections were made in the very first, uncited article version. We should either re-title using a redirect, or split. Haploidavey (talk) 12:49, 3 August 2012 (UTC)

The last para of the article, Pashupathas, some how makes no connection to the main article and I feel it is out of place or not relavant. Need to relook on last para?Rayabhari (talk) 14:30, 3 August 2012 (UTC)
Yes, it's an altogether odd assemblage, and the last section doesn't help. Doug seems to be on a roll, so I'll wait a bit. As far as I can tell, the article content - much improved by recent tightening, though not mine, I should add - boils down to an explication of the title Pashupati ("Lord of Animals," whether or not Shiva is meant). That both narrows things down, and opens them up. Difficult to say how it should go, but I think you're right about the last para; it probably belongs in Shiva's article. Haploidavey (talk) 14:46, 3 August 2012 (UTC)
On going through article history, it is clear that the article was started as Hindu god Shiva or Pashupathi with no mention of Indus seal, but later details of Indus seal are added - that is why such odd assemblage. As you observed, it is better we should re-title / rewrite the article, may be with emphasis to Indus Valley Civilisation.Rayabhari (talk) 15:11, 3 August 2012 (UTC)
We have an article on Indus script, to which Indus valley seals and scripts currently redirects. What would you say to removal of the redirect, and a new article on the seals? With so little writing, and so much iconography, they certainly seem to merit their own article. Haploidavey (talk) 15:51, 3 August 2012 (UTC)
Sorry for delay. I think that would be better. Better to have a new article excl. for indus seals with title Indus valley seals and sealings (or similar). So much is written on seals in differrent articles, now in one place, it may come as a good article. Then, I think, Pashupathi article can concentrate on pashupathi-the god Shiva?Rayabhari (talk) 13:46, 4 August 2012 (UTC)
Thanks, and I'm sorry for a much longer delay than I intended. I've nothing immediate to offer (time and preoccupation forbid), but have found two, possibly three relevant scholarly sources for this and the eventual spin-off article. Probably more relevant to the spin-off, really. Will post journal-links here tomorrow The most thorough and promising seems to be: Doris Srinivasan, "The So-Called Proto-śiva Seal from Mohenjo-Daro: An Iconological Assessment", Archives of Asian Art, Vol. 29 (1975/1976), pp. 47-58. I hope you've access. Haploidavey (talk) 21:48, 15 August 2012 (UTC)

Pashupati seal[edit]

Pashupati seal Does not shows seated ithyphallic. It shows animals surrounding a human. All of 24 tirthankararas are associated with 1 animal.For Example Lord Mahavir is associated with Lion, Pasarvnath with snake, Rishab with Bull, Shantinath with Deer. The striking feature is that, there is deer below the seat of human (Exactly this is the way jains put one animal as a symbol below the seat of their Tirthankaras). All tirthankars are shown sitting in lotus position/Yogic Mudra on a seat/throne. All tirthankars are nude but not ithyphallic like shiva. I saw similarities and some mistakes. Therefore i shared my knowledge. I think it is good to have others opinion. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 106.204.213.43 (talk) 00:00, 17 November 2013 (UTC) Jainism teaches tolerance to other religions but it also teaches to stand for truth. Hinduism and Jainism both originated from Indus civilization and both are as old as history can go. So, how can one say that there cannot be (or must not be) any Jain idol or picture in Indus valley? how can one say that there cannot be roots of Jainism in Indian history/Indus valley? Yes , Pashupati is one of the names of shiva. Hinduism is very popular in India. Can any one tell me if, Hindus place a small icon of animal under the seat/throne of Shiva exactly like this in picture?

As far as the name " pashupati seal is concerned, it was given by a british archaeologist. Probably because Hinduism was very popular and Shiva rides on bull. Also because pashupati is one of the names of shiva. But, this is a modern nomenclature, there is no such name as 'pashupati seal' in brahmi language. It is not the name written on the picture. Therefore i am sharing my knowledge of history. dissemination of knowledge is not a crime...why my posts are deleted with bias? Yes I have been to Kathmandu Pashupati Nath temple and i have seen the idol of shiva. It is different !Dr Prashanna Jain Gotani (talk) 00:41, 17 November 2013 (UTC)

I think Lord Shiva is also called as "Adinath Shiva" and he is associated with "OX/Bull" . Many historians have quoted that "pashupati Seal" or " Proto Shiva" is sitting on "buffalo". However, "buffalo" is associated with 'god of Death' or 'Yama' not Shiva.Hence there is mistake while looking at the seal/picture.[1]. In every picture of shiva there is snake in throat,crescent moon, matted hair, sacred ganges, mount kailash, trishul and damru missing in this picture.[2]

I have decided to add some references on demand:

1) Picture of Tirthankara Shantinath in lotus/Yogi position on a seat with Deer engraving on his seat: [3], [4], http://www.ejainism.com/shantinathmaindes.htm, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shantinath,

2) Picture/Idols of 24 Jain Tirthankara in lotus/Yogi position on a seat with specific animal engraving below their seat: [5], http://www.idjo.org/site/24_Jain_Tirthankars.aspx

3) Short biography and Picture of Tirthankara Shantinath with animals surrounding him. [6], http://www.jainoutlook.com/shantinathprabhu.php

4) Short biography of Tirthankara "Adinath Rishaba" (aka 'Ri-Shiba'). [7], [8], http://www.herenow4u.net/index.php?id=74977, http://www.ejainism.com/rishabhamainevents.html,

5) Picture of Tirthankara Rishab dev with animals : [9] Dr Prashanna Jain Gotani (talk) 13:48, 17 November 2013 (UTC)

Our articles can never be used as references. The websites all fail WP:RS. This is the English language Wikipedia so we use English titles, etc. And I'm sorry, but you still don't seem to have read WP:VERIFY, WP:RS, or WP:NOR despite being asked to read them. You don't understand how Wikipedia works. Dougweller (talk) 20:01, 17 November 2013 (UTC)
"Pashupati seal is a Jain icon" seems an WP:OR. For your kind information, there are portrayals of Shiva and other Hindu deities where the vahana is placed near the feet of the seated deity, at the bottom of the seat. However, though there are many theories connecting Shiva to the Pashupati seal, the Pashupati form discussed here is not the Shiva on the Pashupati seal. The Pashupati seal is an WP:UNDUE here. Redtigerxyz Talk 04:38, 18 November 2013 (UTC)