Talk:Paternal age effect

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Paternal Age[edit]

Is there any part of the paternal age effect that belongs in Wikipedia? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Anniepema (talkcontribs)

It really needs to be peer-reviewed research which has been published in a reputable scientific journal. See Wikipedia:No original research. -Fsotrain09 17:31, 27 December 2006 (UTC)


Large parts of this page are copied/pasted from this link: http://www.uthscsa.edu/opa/issues/new33-32/graduate.htm

Article claims that at least one X-linked condition is influenced by paternal age; no source cited for this questionable claim. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.224.135.176 (talk) 23:48, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

hemophilia[edit]

as far as i can tell, hemophilia is a genetic disorder that's inherited through two recessive genes. How the age of the father affects this, i don't know. How would his age affect a gene he had in his DNA from birth? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 167.7.17.3 (talk) 19:55, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

de novo mutations increase with advancing paternal age —Preceding unsigned comment added by 156.145.79.132 (talk) 03:13, 22 October 2009 (UTC)

Neutral tone[edit]

The tone of this article is strange for a medical article. Something like this "If my son or daughter was to ask..." isn't very scientific. Bhny (talk) 20:26, 24 December 2013 (UTC)

Suggestions[edit]

Definition

MedicineNet.com lists two types of paternal age effects. The two types are autosomalmutations and an indirect paternal age effect from mutations on the X chromosome. [1] [2]

Clinical implications

MedicineNet.com also states that there is no universal definition of advanced paternal age, but does suggest that in the realm of genetic counseling, all men 40 yrs and older at the time of conception meet the criterion.[1]

Pathophysiology

Commenting on the study of 78 Icelandic families,[3] Harry Fisch, MD, clinical professor of urology and reproductive medicine at Weill Cornell Medical College of Cornell University, suggests that now men too have a reference point in decisions of advanced paternal age and risk for genetic defects.[4]The article cites that for women the age of 35 is a benchmark in determining the age of increasing escalation of genetic defect risks and that now men can assume a doubling of the mutation rate every 16 years.
  1. ^ a b [7]Definition of advanced paternal age.
  2. ^ [8]Autism Risk Across Generations.
  3. ^ Kong A, Frigge ML, Masson G, Besenbacher S, Sulem P, Magnusson G, Gudjonsson SA, Sigurdsson A, Jonasdottir A, Jonasdottir A, Wong WS, Sigurdsson G, Walters GB, Steinberg S, Helgason H, Thorleifsson G, Gudbjartsson DF, Helgason A, Magnusson OT, Thorsteinsdottir U, Stefansson K (2012). "Rate of de novo mutations and the importance of father's age to disease risk". Nature 488 (7412): 471–5. doi:10.1038/nature11396. PMC 3548427. PMID 22914163.
  4. ^ [9]Father's Age Linked to Autism.

Wilson.3308 (talk) 04:07, 30 September 2014 (UTC)

In the History section of the article, a more developed history of how the Paternal Age Effect was discovered, came about could be included. In the Notable Conditions and Diseases section, many diseases are listed at the bottom without explanation. If enough information is available, more common conditions and diseases should be elaborated on, namely cataracts, heart defects, hemophilia, Klinefelter's Syndrome. Go more in-depth in the Semen & Sperm Abnormalities section, taking more about the actual studies that were preformed and the results they had. Also include aneuploidy as potential abnormality.

I agree that Autism Spectrum Disorder and Bipolar Disorder are missing links to the Wiki pages in the Notable Conditions and Diseases section. Is a free full text available for your citation on the aneuploidy study? And caution, the word performed is not spelled correctly in your edit change. Wilson.3308 (talk) 04:01, 5 October 2014 (UTC)
I Thank you for the feedback. I've gone and corrected the error. I'm still trying to find the full text for the article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Collins.1128 (talkcontribs) 02:44, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

RASopathies such as achondroplasia and Noonan are not mentioned.

Image[edit]

Nuevas aficiones (7984692236).jpg
I would like to add the following image to the article to help portray the meaning and improve upon the page.Wilson.3308 (talk) 02:57, 11 October 2014 (UTC)


Edit[edit]

As per my assignment, I have edited the previous "other conditions" section. It is now labeled (PAE) Disorders, mechanism, and other conditions. This edit lists the disorders collectively known as (PAE) disorders and briefly mentions the "Selfish Selection" mechanism as outlined by Goriely A, and Wilkie AOM (2013). Also, so as to not have the disorders listed twice, I have removed these (PAE) disorders from the long list of other conditions that follow. Wilson.3308 (talk) 00:49, 20 November 2014 (UTC)

Article is poor[edit]

Refs need to be improved per WP:MEDRS. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 06:16, 12 December 2014 (UTC)

Remove sections "Paternal mortality" and "Fertility"?[edit]

The two subsections on "Paternal mortality before adulthood of child" and "Fertility" are not really paternal age effects, in the sense that these two effects relate primarily to the father, not to the offspring. Delete or move to some other more appropriate Wiki article? Suggestions? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.137.100.88 (talk) 09:55, 3 May 2015 (UTC)

Message to Doc James[edit]

Good morning Doc James. Today you slimmed down the article considerably by replacing detailed references with summary statements, and by restricting the definition of "paternal age effect" to a health problem rather than a general biological effect (see definition in the first sentence).

I can see the advantage in this new format for a time-pressed medical practitioner (this makes the Wiki-page a quick-reference source), but it is now less useful for the researcher trying to enter this increasingly active field of research. And there is nearly a complete lack of quantification - is the risk 1 percent? 40 percent? Who knows. The disappointed reader needs to return to PubMed, which undermines the purpose of Wikipedia, methinks.

I am not suggesting you revert things now, but please do not discourage future editors from adding some more flesh on the bones. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.131.171.56 (talk) 11:16, 28 May 2015 (UTC)

We need to use recent secondary sources. Not masses of 30 year old primary sources. This article has huges issues with its references. It needs to be updated per WP:MEDRS.
Health effects are what people care about. General biological effects may or may not be mechanisms of the resulting health effects Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 11:37, 28 May 2015 (UTC)
I too care about health effects. But the field is not yet sufficiently advanced to be sure on most of these health effects. So far, only the biology is secure. The health effects must await further research. So it is imbalanced to make this article all about medicine, and put biology in the closet. Wait another 5 years and then you may be right, but it is too early now. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.131.171.56 (talk) 12:12, 28 May 2015 (UTC)
wikipedia content should be based on the most recent secondary sources we can find. you need a very good reason to use very old primary sources. Jytdog (talk) 12:29, 28 May 2015 (UTC)
The mechanism per WP:MEDMOS goes lower in the article and gets seperated from health effects as they are not. Yes we all agree this area has a poor amount of research thus the article should likely be shorter. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 12:31, 28 May 2015 (UTC)
Right - conclusions of research published in primary sources, that do not get picked up in reviews, are unlikely to be worth discussing in WP. Jytdog (talk) 12:34, 28 May 2015 (UTC)
I trimmed primary and very dated references--Ozzie10aaaa (talk) 12:57, 28 May 2015 (UTC)

I reverted Ozzie10aaaa's changes because in several cases he removed dated references (such as a 2003 review) while leaving the associated claim, now unreferenced. If all references are removed, the claim should also be removed. If not, a 2003 review is better than no reference at all. KateWishing (talk) 15:08, 28 May 2015 (UTC)

Doc James and Ozzie:

I confess I am curious how on earth you manage to make large numbers of changes within minutes. Do you have a team working for you?
Secondly, although I am not entirely happy with the strong medical vs biological emphasis, I think the article overall is better now - can you upgrade its rating?
And I think we can now remove the warning that the references are poor. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.131.171.56 (talk) 16:03, 28 May 2015 (UTC)
I type fast. There is no team :-) The article still needs work. I am okay with older reviews as this is not a well researched area. Hopefully they are within the last 15 years though. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 12:46, 29 May 2015 (UTC)

Ozzie referencing[edit]

I am concerned by Ozzie10aaaa's method of adding references, which seems to involve searching related words on Google Books. Often, the results are only vaguely related to the article text. Here are examples from his recent edits, with unsupported text bolded:

Article text Source text Source link
"Such effects can relate to miscarriage risk, birthweight, congenital disorders and health-related conditions including mortality and longevity, or risk of psychological outcomes." "[Advanced paternal age is] associated with chromosomal aberrations, low birth weight, and congenital malformations [...] schizophrenia" [1]
"Some classify the paternal age effect as one of two different types. One effect is directly related to advanced paternal age and autosomal mutations in the offspring. The other effect is an indirect effect in relation to mutations on the X chromosome which are passed to daughters who are then at risk for having sons with X-linked diseases" "The changes will not be quite as large for autosomal-dominant rare conditions with a paternal age effect as for numeric chromosome aberrations, the paternal age effect on dominant and X-linked mutation rates being smaller than the effect of maternal age age on incidence of numeric chromosomal anomalies." [2]
"Later age at parenthood is associated with a more stable family environment, higher socio-economic position, higher income and better living conditions, as well as better parenting practices, but it is more or less uncertain whether these entities are effects of advanced parental age, are contributors to advanced parental age, or common effects of a certain state such as personality type." "Research has demonstrated an inverse relationship between maternal age and child maltreatment. [...] Youthful parenting is intertwined with other factors. For example, less positive parental nurturing and discipline were seen in mothers who were younger, who had more than one child living at home, who were single, who had a lower level of educational attainment." [3]

KateWishing (talk) 17:24, 28 May 2015 (UTC)

Doc James I believe the #1 and #3 references are fine...in regard to the #2 reference, the statement in question has been supported by two references, have therefore adjusted the text accordingly to the reference in question (please revert or delete should you believe inadequate)...(update) [4]...I had to delete the #2 ref due to an IP reverting the additional text --Ozzie10aaaa (talk) 23:05, 28 May 2015 (UTC)
The references and our article should convey exactly the same thing in different words. You can't just take a pre-existing sentence and source it to a vaguely related, but distinct statement in a book. None of these sources are saying the same thing as our article, and #2 and #3 are barely similar. These are not isolated examples, but a general pattern in your editing. You should be more careful to only add a source when it supports precisely what our article states.
You've attempted to reword the #2 material to match the source, but in taking it out of context you produced nonsense. What "changes?"
I'm sorry if I am being harsh. KateWishing (talk) 23:42, 28 May 2015 (UTC)

Recent review[edit]

May 2015 [5] Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 16:20, 30 May 2015 (UTC)

Doc James please comment on Diabetes type I[edit]

Hi Doc James,

On 28 May 2015 you removed the diabetes subsection (which cited research up to 2005), and replaced it with a 2010 textbook reference. I have now looked up the textbook, and it provides no data, only a reference to Peng and Hagopian 2006 (the abstract does not mention paternal age at all) and Baan et al. 2005 (an obscure Dutch governmental report I cannot access). As you made the change, can you please access those two papers and provide the risk factors mentioned there, if they exist? I would like to see the information included in the Wiki article. My suspicions/concerns are that (a) the textbook you cite is not a useful reference in this instance and (b) the weight of evidence suggests that there is potentially no paternal age effect for diabetes type I, and therefore the Wiki article as it stands is medically misleading. To underline point (b), see the Lammi et al 2007 (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17943268) which finds no paternal age effect for diabetes type I.

For your convenience, here is the section as it was before your replacement on 28 May 2015:

(now moved to article page)

The source says "other possible risk factors include stress, higher maternal or paternal age at birth" which I have summarized as "A higher paternal age is a possible risk factor for type 1 diabetes" Which is basically what all the primary sources said but in fewer words. We do not need to follow up on the sources that this book is using. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 09:06, 31 May 2015 (UTC)
"We do not need to follow up on the sources that this book is using." - Are you referring to Wiki guidelines here? If so, which one please? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.137.100.104 (talk) 09:31, 31 May 2015 (UTC)
There are apparently no dedicated reviews about paternal age and diabetes, but this 2010 meta-analysis of maternal age says: "Although children with older mothers are more likely to have older fathers, there is no clear association between paternal age at delivery and type 1 diabetes (10,11,19,28,34)." This 2011 diabetes textbook states results for paternal age have been inconsistent. So the current wording of "possible risk factor" is accurate, but should probably reflect more of the uncertainty in the literature. KateWishing (talk) 14:25, 31 May 2015 (UTC)
I added these sources to the section. KateWishing (talk) 16:59, 31 May 2015 (UTC)
Thanks Kate - grateful for all your professional detective work on this article. On a related matter - would you be interested in mediating between me and Jytdog (see below)? If not, can you recommend a mediator? From my point of view, all the mediator has to do is access the two articles within the 2010 book, and search them with a word processor for "Paternal age effect", which will take milliseconds. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.137.100.104 (talk) 17:16, 31 May 2015 (UTC)
The 2011 book says "paternal age have been less consistent". Am happy with the clarifications by User:KateWishing Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 03:02, 1 June 2015 (UTC)

further comment[edit]

Hi again Doc James, On 28 May 2015 you removed the "Diabetes" subsection, and replaced it with a 2010 textbook reference. As mentioned above, I looked up the textbook, and it provides no data, only a reference to Peng and Hagopian 2006 (the abstract does not mention paternal age at all) and Baan et al. 2005 (an obscure Dutch governmental report which also contains no mention of paternal age). Thus the 2010 book reference is a "fake" with regards to diabetes and the paternal age effect. In case you cannot access the Baan et al. 2005 report yourself, I am pasting the contents below, so you can see its irrelevance for yourself.

I am therefore reinstating the old diabetes section, and urge you in future to read references carefully before you cite them on Wikipedia.

Baan et al. 2005 Contents:

Summary 1. Introduction Part I The Chronic Disease Model and diabetes 2. The Chronic Disease Model (CDM) and diabetes 3. Adaptations to the CDM with respect to diabetes Part II Diabetes input data in the CDM 17 4. Incidence, prevalence and mortality of diabetes 17 4.1 Introduction 4.2 The Dismod method 17 4.3 Incidence and prevalence data 18 4.4 Mortality data 5. Diabetes health care utilization, costs and quality of life 29 5.1 Diabetes health care utilization 29 5.2 Diabetes costs 5.3 Diabetes Quality of life 33 Part III Prevention of diabetes 35 6. Risk factors for diabetes incidence and primary prevention 35 6.1 Introduction 6.2 Methods 7. Risk factors for diabetes incidence 39 7.1 Body Mass Index 39 7.2 Physical inactivity 42 7.3 Smoking 7.4 Alcohol 7.5 Combination of risk factors 49 7.6 Conclusion risk factors for diabetes incidence 50 8. Primary prevention 8.1 Lifestyle interventions 51 8.2 Pharmacological interventions 52 8.3 Primary prevention conclusions 53 Part IV Prevention of diabetes complications 55 9. Macrovascular complications of diabetes and tertiary prevention 55 9.1 Introduction 9.2 Methods 9.3 Prevalence of macrovascular complications in individuals with diabetes 59 10. Risk factors for macrovascular complications in individuals with diabetes 61 10.1 Overweight 10.2 Physical inactivity 65 10.3 Smoking 10.4 Total cholesterol 70 10.5 Hypertension 10.6 HbA1c 11. Tertiary prevention 79 11.1 Interventions to reduce bodyweight 79 11.2 Strict control of blood glucose 80 11.3 Blood pressure control 80 page 6 of 145 RIVM report 260801001 11.4 Lipid control 11.5 Conclusions tertiary prevention 81 12. Discussion and conclusions 83 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.137.100.104 (talk) 13:10, 31 May 2015 (UTC)

this edit is not OK. The sources are old and PRIMARY and don't comply with MEDRS. The content overall is the editor's WP:SYN, building an argument by stringing together primary sources. We don't do that here - we instead summarize secondary or tertiary sources. Please don't edit war, but instead continue to talk. Thanks. Jytdog (talk) 13:50, 31 May 2015 (UTC)
Jytdog, I continue to be happy to talk. You know from the above that the 2010 book reference is inappropriate, as it does not cite any paternal age effect study, agreed? I will wait an hour or so for you to respond, and then revert your mistake, hope that is fine with you. Alternatively, please delete the 2010 book and provide a genuine reference within the next hour, and then I do not need to revert. As it is a medical matter, I think it is urgent for all of us to contribute constructively in fixing this, so your expert input would be welcome.
There is WP:NODEADLINE here. Do not edit war. All of us are volunteers and work on our own time. I will try to respond soon. Jytdog (talk) 15:11, 31 May 2015 (UTC)
Great that you are on board. And please do not suspect edit wars around every corner - this is the second time you make the claim, which is impolite. Deadlines are sensible here because we are working across very different time zones, and medical matters are a human priority. Let me know within the hour when you will do it. Meanwhile I am commenting "citation needed", because I doubt you will find a dedicated review, possibly not even a pertinent textbook (see Kate above). But I live in hope. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.137.100.104 (talk) 15:46, 31 May 2015 (UTC)
restoring the content was edit warring already. promising to restore it in an hour regardless of discussion here, is a promise to edit war. Please don't edit war. adding a cn tag is POINTy., but whatever. nothing in wikipedia is urgent other than threats of personal harm, BLP violations and COPYVIO. please slow down. Thanks. Jytdog (talk) 15:51, 31 May 2015 (UTC)
actually removing the source and adding a cn was entirely inappopriate. The cited source says of T1D: "Other possible risk factors include stress, higher material or paternal age at birth...". The content says "A higher paternal age is a possible risk factor for type 1 diabetes." The source supports the content and is a MEDRS source. I have given you an edit war notice. Jytdog (talk) 16:00, 31 May 2015 (UTC)
Hi Jytdog. So we need to go to dispute resolution. But before that, very briefly, please answer the following question with a simple yes or no: have you read the two references cited on p301 in the 2010 book? Just a simple yes or no please. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.137.100.104 (talk) 16:11, 31 May 2015 (UTC)

──────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────── slow down. i have only just begun to discuss this with the other editors here. The book is a reliable source per WP:MEDRS. Per WP:MEDASSESS (part of MEDRS) we do not conduct peer review on reliable sources. Please read that link and confirm that you understand it. But i do agree that neither of the refs used mention paternal age. I went onto pubmed to look for other secondary sources on paternal age and risk of diabetes. (search is here)

  • PMID 23123588 is a false hit
  • PMID 18711662 is a false hit - doesn't mention diabetes risk of offspring, just the risk of the older men getting diabetes
  • PMID 11341301 (old, from 2001) is a false hit - it discusses many risks to the child, correlated with paternal age, but doesn't mention paternal age.

I also went and looked for other books. this one:

  • Tournaye, H. Male reproductive ageing. Chapter 10 in Reproductive Ageing: Royal College of Obstetricians and Gynaecologists Study Group. Eds Bewley S et al. Cambridge University Press, 2009 ISBN 9781906985134

discusses many risks of advanced paternal age, but doesn't mention diabetes.

this one has good content. In a section on risks, it says: "Results for birth order and for paternal age have been less consistent" (compared to maternal age) and cites PMID 11509426 and PMID 15660739.

  • Stene LC et al. Epidemiology of Type 1 Diabetes. Chapter 3 in Textbook of Diabetes, 4th Ed. Eds. Holt RIG et al. John Wiley & Sons, 2011 ISBN 9781444348064

i see that kate had already found the same book, and cited it, along with a primary meta-analysis source. perfect!!! I left that, but removed the PRIMARY. This is a lot of fuss over something that we just can't say much about, as of now. We may be able to say more later, but we cannot much now. Jytdog (talk) 17:13, 31 May 2015 (UTC) (amend Jytdog (talk) 17:39, 31 May 2015 (UTC))

I don't mind that you removed it, but I did not add any primary sources. This is a meta-analysis, and the relevant comment (quoted above) is from the Discussion section in any case. KateWishing (talk) 17:21, 31 May 2015 (UTC)
you got me again! you are very good, it is a pleasure to work with you. Jytdog (talk) 17:38, 31 May 2015 (UTC)
Hi Kate and Jytdog, glad that we have managed to resolve it without killing each other. Have a nice remaining Sunday. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.137.100.104 (talk) 17:26, 31 May 2015 (UTC)
great. Jytdog (talk) 17:38, 31 May 2015 (UTC)

review /2010 /[edit]

might want to try this reference , its a Diabetes mellitus type 1 reference under Paternal age and outcome of offspring section [6] (should you have difficulty use CTRL+f for word find) --Ozzie10aaaa (talk) 18:20, 1 June 2015 (UTC)