Talk:Patrice de MacMahon, Duke of Magenta

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Untitled[edit]

The section about the Paris Commune and the Third Republic are badly written. Need a polishing. -- J

Should this be Duke of Magenta? I mean, our style isn't Rey de España. - Montréalais

I agree with Montrealais. -- Zoe

Turning his title into english in this particular case would produce an utter mess. His name is already made up of a mix of two languages, french and Irish. Adding a third would just make the page into a farce, a blurred mix of french, Irish and english that in fact no-one ever called him.

Patrice(french to english) Patrick MacMahon (Irish to english) McMahon, duc de french to english Duke of Magenta.

Sources that use name or title on its own can separate them and use the french/Irish personal name or english version of the title. But for sensible reasons and because sometimes he is known by title, other times by name, and because he has an Irish name (in fact an Irish language version of an Irish name - Mac . . . is the Irish language version of a name, Mc . . . is the anglicised version), wiki rightly uses {name} {surname}, {title} for a hereditary peer. In terms of usage, this name is the name from hell with its use of two languages. Tacking on an english version of his title to a french first name and an Irish language surname would produce the sort of farce that even a Brussels bureaucrat could not master.

Furthermore, many Europeans do tend to use the original linguistic versions of some famous french names. Historians in general prefer to use Comte de Chambord rather than the Count of Chambord, the Comte de Paris rather Count of Paris (certainly few historians, or even secondly school pupils would talk about how the Count of Chambord turned down the French throne in 1871 because he didn't like the tricolour, or how the Count of Paris is the current heir to the French throne.

As Zoe well knows, I am all for consistency and structure but sometimes you come across a name that is so alkward that the best thing you can do is just leave it alone, leave well enough. if we had a Patrice MacMahon page it might work, or a Duke of Magenta page. But a french-Irish-english name? (But it could be worse. Another title he had was Comte de MacMahon. And though he used Patrice on account of his Irish ancestry, he was often called Marie. So he should really be

  • Marie Patrice MacMahon, Comte de MacMahon, duc de Magenta, or in english
  • Mary Patrick McMahon, Count of McMahon, Duke of Magenta.

This is one name that is a nightmare whatever way you look at it. The best thing to do is either leave it as he used it, or put it all in one language. Having a bit in French, a bit in Irish and other bits in english would be unworkable. Changing it to english would involve changing all but one word. Surely there is enough pain in the world without adding to it!!! :) STÓD/ÉÍRE 09:01 Mar 23, 2003 (UTC)

I'd pick one, and use the rest (and this one) as redirects. - Hephaestos

Naming conventions require the use of name + title, if the title is a inherited peerage, even if the person possessing it was the first to use it.

This is silly. I wasn't proposing to translate his name, I was proposing to translate his title, which are completely different things. Please compare Felipe, Prince of Asturias; the man is known in English by the name Felipe, not Philip; but we use the translated title Prince of Asturias, not Príncipe de Asturias.

I don't see the "farce" you're claiming would exist. I've got a Hebrew first name, an English middle name, and a Scottish last name, and I've run twice for an office whose title is bilingual English and French. If I can deal with it (as can Vicente Fox, president of Mexico), so can this gentleman.

(Furthermore, was Patrice MacMahon ever known as Patrick? Wasn't he born in France?)

Incidentally, both Irish people and Scots use both Mc and Mac. - Montréalais (a Scottish Mc descended from Macs)

Mac is strictly speaking the gaelic version of the name, meaning 'son of'. Mc is the anglicised version. For example, in the 1920s, two brothers were high profile in Irish politics. One, James McNeill, the second Governor-General of the Irish Free State, used the anglicised 'mc' while his Irish language fanatic brother, Eoin MacNeill used the gaelic version. The nearest comparison I can think of is Ó versus O'. Eoin O'Duffy used the anglicised version. Cearbhall Ó Dálaigh, the fifth president of Ireland, used the gaelic version. Technically the president's name in english was Charles O'Daly, but he insisted on only being called by the Irish name (just as he insisted on being called Chief Justice in Irish, not english, when he held the post). So though used in english, Mac is not an english word but an Irish/Scottish one, with Mc its english language translation. Hence MacMahon was an Irish word, which if translated in english would be spelt McMahon.

Sorry, I was tired and maybe didn't express my earlier comments correctly. I can understand exactly the point you were making. I'm the one who created the Filipe, Prince of Asturias page (at least I think I did. It is so long ago maybe I decided on the title.) And I did a major rewrite of the name on royal and academic naming conventions to create some logical consistency. The trouble with prominent French title-holders is that their French title is often used rather than translated in english. In my college history lectures, for example, we always said Comte de Chambord, never Count of Chambord, Comte de Paris never Count of Paris, though monarchical titles were used in english. Chambord and his rejection of the French crown in 1871 features in a chapter of a book I am writing. My editor wants me (and I agree with her) to call him the Comte de Chambord, not the Count of Chambord. Similarly, while in college we generally just called MacMahon as just that, when the title was used it was always duc de Magenta not Duke of Magenta (BTW 'Duke of Magenta' was also the name of a very famous racehorse!).

The principle reason I suspect was because they were so close to the english translation that there was no point changing them as their meaning was obvious. I think that does apply here. Príncipe de Austurias is slightly less clear because it is pronounced different to the english version, but duc is even pronounced the same as duke. In the circumstances I never saw the need to change a title whose meaning is so close to english that no-one on english wiki should have any problem understanding it. I think that should really be the wiki standard. If a title is so close to the english version, I simply don't see the need to anglicise it. It would be adding additional work to change all French titles to english when their meaning is pretty obvious as it stands. And I do still think that using his french/Irish first name/surname with an unnecessary english translation of his title would look clumsy. Some places where they do anglicise the title also then anglicise his first name/surname. STÓD/ÉÍRE 20:22 Mar 23, 2003 (UTC)

I don't know if Hephaestos is just trying to throw up a straw man here, but the comments are ludicrous. Nobody suggested translating the man's name, only his title. -- Zoe

What the hell are you doing, Hep?

  1. The naming convention is to use the person's {first name} {surname}, {title} NOT name, for the holder of a hereditary title, which MacMahon held.
  2. Nobody agreed with your proposed move. Not one person.
  3. There is still a discussion going on about how to refer to title in this case. Wait until there is a decision before moving it.

I have put the page back where it was for the time being. If and when there is an agreement, it can be moved if necessary. But wait until a decision is made. Don't jump the gun, especially as you are the only person to suggest that version of the name. STÓD/ÉÍRE 02:23 Mar 24, 2003 (UTC)

100 years ago, an entry on the Earl of Beaconsfield would have been acceptable; today you would use his pre-peerage name of Disraeli. – STÓD/ÉÍRE, 01:06 Dec 23, 2002 (UTC) - Hephaestos

It goes on a case-by-case basis. If this guy is better known by his name + title, then we use the name + title. - Montréalais

That's the thing, about this article, by most English speakers he's hardly known at all. Hephaestos
I might also mention what I read recently on the mailing list, courtesy Uncle Ed, wherein he states, regarding naming convetions:
  • unambiguous, and
  • as short as possible
...which bill "Patrice MacMahon" clearly fills, in my view. Hephaestos

Wrong. He is referred to in different history books as:

  • Patrice MacMahon
  • duc de Magenta

In my first year in college, he was invariably called the former. In my second year, my lecturer invariably called him the latter. Wiki naming conventions expressly requires that someone with a hereditary title should have it included in the article title, eg Louis Mountbatten, 1st Earl Mountbatten of Burma because some people may know him or her by name, others by title. History books in France may use one version, in Germany another, in the United States another. Short as possible in the case of hereditary peers cannot mean just the name, because many people know a person by title, or a combination of both. In addition, some children of hereditary peers use courtesy titles as surnames, and surnames as courtesy titles. So the agreed convention was for a hereditary peer, name + title. For someone with a courtesy title, use it.

This has been the standard for months since the naming conventions on royalty and holders of peerages were reviewed after a long debate on the talk pages and on the wiki list. A number of people have been systematically adapting titles of articles to include all name + title, because so many different people use different versions of names for people with hereditary titles, courtesy titles, etc. Patrice MacMahon may suit you, but it won't suit many many wiki users. STÓD/ÉÍRE 05:02 Mar 27, 2003 (UTC)

Wiki naming conventions expressly requires that someone with a hereditary title should have it included in the article title - they do? This is news to me. -- Zoe

  1. Members of the hereditary nobility' (ie, people who inherit their title), such as a marquess, viscount, count, duke. earl, etc., as with royals have two names. For example Henry John Temple was also the 3rd Viscount Palmerston, hence typically referred to as "Lord Palmerston". Naming the article Henry John Temple, 3rd Viscount Palmerston, with redirect Lord Palmerston allows both of his names to be included. The sequence number is included since personal names are often duplicated (see Earl of Aberdeen.)
  2. An honorific such as Lord Normanby may refer to any of the holders of the associated title, so can redirect to a page about the title itself.

Should this be at Patrice MacMahon, Duc de Magenta? We're using upper case to refer to British and Irish peers, is the convention different for the Frech or what?


I'd hate to sound rude but you're all very wrong about the name MacMahon. MacMahon, McMahon, and various forms like that are very, very English. The Irish form of the name is "mac Mahuna" in modern Irish orthography; in traditional, it is "mac Mathghamha". But, unfortunately, Patrice MacMahon is not that type of MacMahon. "Later in that country there was John MacMahon (1715-1780), who was ennobled as Marquis d'Eguilly, of the Clare MacMahons, and his grandson Patrick MacMahon (1808-1893) who was President as well as Marshal of France. It is probable that Charles Patrick Mahon (1800-1891), better known as "The O'Gorman Mahon", was a descendant of the Clare MacMahons. Mahon, however, though sometimes used as an abbreviated form of MacMahon, is as a rule a distinct name, being that borne by two septs located in connacht, one in the diocese of Kilmacduagh (south Galway) and the other as erenagh family of Killaraght, Co. Sligo, who were hereditary custodians of the Cross of St. Attracta. This surname, O Mochain in Irish and properly Mohan in English, spread in to Munster, where it was usually anglicized Vaughan. Though Vaughan is, of course, a common Welsh name most of our Irish Vaughans are in fact of this Gaelic stock." http://www.goireland.com/genealogy/scripts/Family.asp?FamilyID=226 So, basically, the moral is that changing "Mc" to "Mac" or "O'" to "Ó" does not an Irish name make. One more example: O'Hara--->ModIr. Ó hEagra. Gaidheal

Mac-Mahon[edit]

The proper French spelling is, as far as I know, Mac-Mahon. I suggest the article should be moved to that spelling, since it discusses a Frenchman. I realize that British and Irish people have different ways of spelling such names, but I think we should primarily write names as the people describe wrote their own name. David.Monniaux 19:40, 26 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Futhermore, it's Patrice de Mac-Mahon, not Patrice MacMahon. 23:18, 15 November 2005 (UTC)
The French spell his name Mac Mahon with a space and no hyphen, or often with no space and no hyphen. His biographer says: "It should be noted that the usage does not put and should not put a hyphen between Mac Mahon. The error comes from the Marshal himself, who often signed by putting a continuous line between the two words. The Official Journal interpreted this connection letters as a hyphen and the custom was to write Mac-Mahon in all official acts of the time, but it is wrong. " Gabriel de Broglie, Mac Mahon, Paris, Perrin, 2000, p. 17 . Rjensen (talk) 07:44, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

Broglie's book seems pretty authoritative. How do we change the spelling in the title of the article? Mole2 (talk) 01:31, 9 April 2014 (UTC)

What About De Gaulle?[edit]

"To date he is the only person of Irish descent to have served as a head of state in continental Europe." Did'nt de Gaulle have Irish ancestry? Fergananim

Various royalty have descent from Strongbow's wife...For instance:

Eva of Leinster m. Richard de Clare, Earl of Pembroke 1. Their daughter, Isabel, Countess of Pembroke; m. William Marshal, Earl of Pembroke 2. Their daughter, Maud Marshal; m. Hugh Bigod, 3rd Earl of Norfolk 3. Their daughter, Isabel Bigod; m.2 John FitzGeoffrey 4. Their daughter, Aveline FitzJohn m. Walter de Burgh, 1st Earl of Ulster 5. Their son, Richard de Burgh, 2nd Earl of Ulster 6. His son, John de Burgh 7. His son, William de Burgh, 3rd Earl of Ulster 8. His daughter, Elizabeth de Burgh, Countess of Ulster; m. Lionel of Antwerp, Duke of Clarence 9. Their daughter, Philippa, m. Edmund Mortimer, 3rd Earl of March 10. Their son, Roger Mortimer, 4th Earl of March 11. His daughter, Anne Mortimer, m. Richard, Earl of Cambridge 12. Their son, Richard, Duke of York 13. His son Edward IV, King of England 14. His daughter Elizabeth of York, m. Henry VII, King of England 15. Their daughter Margaret, m. James IV, King of Scots 16. Their son James V, King of Scots 17. Their daughter Mary, Queen of Scots; m. Henry Stuart, Lord Darnley 18. Their son James VI and I, King of England, &c. 19. His son Charles I, King of England, &c. 20. His daughter Henrietta Anne, m. Philippe, Duc d'Orleans 21. Their daughter Anne Marie, m. Victor Amadeus II, King of Sardinia 22. Their son, Charles Emmanuel III, King of Sardinia...

Not a very clear Irish descent, but an Irish descent nonetheless. john k 02:36, 28 Apr 2005 (UTC)

(From this line descend, in addition to the senior branch of the House of Savoy, all French kings from Louis XV, all Spanish kings from Ferdinand VI, all Kings of the Two Sicilies, all Kings of Prussia...any descendant of James VI and I, which is pretty much the entirety of European royalty by the beginning of the 19th century or so. john k 02:44, 28 Apr 2005 (UTC)

2nd Paragraph[edit]

The second paragraph needs to be cleaned up big-time. The sentence isn't conherent, and there is a URL and somebody's signature just floating around there. --LakeHMM 07:24, 21 February 2006 (UTC)


Surely Prince Albert of Monaco is of Irish stock through his mother Grace Kelly. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.123.248.95 (talk) 11:08, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

Questions about this article[edit]

For one, the sentences about de Gaulle seem out of place. I'm going to delete them, unless somebody has a good reason. Thoughts?

Also, the "Quotes" section says "After the Republicans' victory in the elections of 1877, Gambetta told him to "submit or resign ( se soumettre ou se démettre) to which Mac-Mahon replied: "I'm here. I'm staying here! (J'y suis. J'y reste !)," but earlier in the article it says he said "J'y suis. J'y reste !" during the Crimean War in 1855. Did he say it twice, or is something wrong? Awiseman 16:07, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

The French article does not refer to the elections of 1877, but to the Crimean War. Which article is right then? Sins We Can't Absolve 21:50, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

What was this doing in this article?[edit]

I've removed the following.

Charles DeGaulle, President of France from 1958 to 1969, was descended through a grandmother, Josephine Maillot, a McCartan from Ulster, who had previously published a biography of Daniel O'Connell, the Irish "Liberator" of the who organized mass rallies and represented Ireland in the English Parliament in the 1830s-40s. [1]

Where the heck did it come from and what was it doing there? FearÉIREANNIreland-Capitals.PNG\(caint) 19:23, 28 April 2006 (UTC)


Why Irish?[edit]

Are there any citations that his background is Irish? As far as I am aware MacMahon (or McMahon) is a Scottish name. Or are we referring to him in the same way at the Mafia refers to all English Speaking Eurpoeans as Irish. Travsuth 10:43, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

M(a)c Mahon is an Irish name, not a Scottish one. I should know, I am an Irish McMahon living in Scotland. Something like Matheson I believe is the closest Scottish name. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.68.63.110 (talk) 11:53, 19 October 2008 (UTC)
Here's the article on his family: MacMahon family. He's of Irish descent alright. Gronky (talk) 19:18, 7 June 2012 (UTC)

Requested move[edit]

I suggest moving this article to Patrice MacMahon is the most common English name for the man. Carl Logan 10:16, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

Recipe[edit]

In the classic cookery bible Le Repertoire de la Cuisine "Mac-Mahon" is a way to serve steak and lamb noisettes. Fry the steak. Deglaze with white wine and meat jus, then whisk in butter. Serve the meat in a cocotte on a bed of potaoes sauteed from raw with chopped onion and pour the sauce over. Was this a favourite of the gentleman in question?84.68.163.39 (talk) 13:42, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

WikiProject Military history/Assessment/Tag & Assess 2008[edit]

Article reassessed and graded as start class. Referencing and appropriate inline citation guidelines not met. With appropriate citations and references, this article would easily qualify as B class if not higher. --dashiellx (talk) 18:40, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

Wild Geese[edit]

Does a natural born citizen of France, who happens to be of Irish decent really count as a Wild Goose? Something about that doesn't seem right? Anyone got an opinion? Otherwise, I think I might just remove that category.... --Leodmacleod (talk) 18:45, 3 January 2010 (UTC)

You obviously are correct, even by definition of the WikiCategory, which reads: « The "Wild Geese" were Irish expatriate soldiers who served in continental European armies from the 16th to 18th CE ». (Mac Mahon was born in the 19th century and a natural born citizen of France.) - I will remove the ridiculous category myself since it is still there. -- Bien amicalement, Charvex (talk) 01:26, 18 March 2010 (UTC)

I removed the quotes - explanation[edit]

I've removed three of the four quotes: [2]

One of the quotes is obviously wrong. His "I'm here, I'm staying here" was from the Siege of Sevastopol, not from his presidency. This is common knowledge for people who've read up on post-revolution France, and it's easy to check with web search engines, so this mistake really brings the reliability of the other quotes into question. The two others that I removed had no reference. They're still in the page history if someone has a reference and wants to re-add them. Gronky (talk) 19:28, 7 June 2012 (UTC)

I'm digging around to see where these quotes came from. They were first added in June 2005,[3] so use of these quotes from that period on could be based on Wikipedia, thus making such sources useless.
The user that added them got them from the fr.w.o article.[4] They've since been removed from there, so I'm now looking for why they got removed from fr.w.o. ...Gronky (talk) 19:52, 7 June 2012 (UTC)
In 2010 they were removed from fr.w.o and put on fr.wikiquote.o. Two are still there:
http://fr.wikiquote.org/wiki/Patrice_de_Mac_Mahon
And one is marked as being of dubious reliability. Gronky (talk) 20:03, 7 June 2012 (UTC)