Talk:Patron saint

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Vandalism[edit]

There was a reference I think might be anti-catholic vandalism, which I removed. I also removed a reference to a serial killer being a patron saint of prostitutes, which I think would offend people in general. This page is, for all intensive purposes, going to be viewed by religious people. Therefore it should be tailored to their tastes, although should remain objective as well. These references were neither.24.125.102.206 (talk) 03:15, 7 May 2010 (UTC)

"Therefore it should be tailored to their tastes, although should remain objective as well." oxymoron much? --93.192.63.65 (talk) 14:21, 7 August 2011 (UTC)

Francis[edit]

Incredible amount of work here:) This definition still isn't good enough: isn't Francis the patron saint of animals?

What about Albertus Magnus?[edit]

Patron of the chemists. He was alchemist. He described the Arsenic so clearly that it is usually thought he discovered it (as mentioned by Isaac Asimov in "A short history of chemistry").

St Andrew (the Apostle)[edit]

In the patron saint of countries section, St Andrew and Andrew the Apostle need to be merged as they appear to be the same person according to the St Andrew article and my own limited knowledge. DavidScotson 15:42, 3 Aug 2004 (UTC) St. Andrew was also the patron Saint of Climate. Because of this power, he had the ability to change the time of day, which ivolved the unforgivalbe sun. He could also decide was season it would become, whether the grounghod saw his shadow, and which seasonings people like on their popcorn. Oh, what a delightful power.

Mary as patron saint[edit]

A recent edit removed the references to Mary and substituted: "islam is the only right religion" is only a Patron of a place in the sense that she is the Patron of All Things blessed and good. Her virginity is famed." That new comment obviously can't stand as is (very POV), but the more important issue is the deletion of the many specific designations. If they're not appropriate for this article, should they be added to the Blessed Virgin Mary article? I've raised the question on Talk:Blessed Virgin Mary as well. JamesMLane 14:52, 5 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Mary is considered the patron saint of many countries (usually under a specific title: Immaculate Conception for U.S.A. and Korea, Nuestra Señora de Guadalupe for Mexico and all America, Nossa Senhora di Buon Aparecida for Brazil, and so forth). I think the page should be restored, maybe with dividing them up into the correct titles. Or to placate the editor who made the change, make a new section "Countries under Mary's patronage", listing them by the proper title. Note that several items that were left in the list by the editor are actually appearances of Mary. -- Mpolo

I believe strongly that the deleted information should be available somewhere -- back where it was, or in a separate section in this article as you suggest, or ported over to the Blessed Virgin Mary article. I don't know nearly enough to adjudicate among these possibilities, though. Someone should be bold and put it somewhere. Meanwhile, I'm taking out the puffery about her virginity. JamesMLane 13:27, 10 Aug 2004 (UTC)

OK, I decided to "be bold"... Essentially, I just restored what was removed in a different format and in separate sections. Under "Countries and places", I removed from the "generic" list of Marian patronage any place that was listed under a more specific title. I removed most of the links to the titles, as they are unlikely to ever be written, though I left links to some of the better known or more popular titles of the Blessed Virgin. Does it look O.K.? Mpolo 11 Aug 2004

It looks OK to me, but I really am out of my depth here. You've definitely rescued some information (specific titles and associations) that would've otherwise been lost, so you've improved the article, which is the key test. If it's not perfect, maybe some real expert in Mariology will come along and fix it sometime. JamesMLane 07:41, 13 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Saint Arnold - patron saint of brewers?[edit]

Is Saint Arnold a real saint? A patron saint of brewers or just a joke? Is he already on this list under a different name? - Tεxτurε 18:45, 1 Oct 2004 (UTC)

It's always hard to be sure about these things... Catholic Online http://www.catholic.org/ hasn't heard of him.
At [1] he is cited thus:
"Don't drink the water, drink beer" warned Saint Arnold of Metz (b. 580 AD, d. 640), concerned about the dangers of drinking impure water. He believed that the polluted water caused illness, while the boiled and processed water used for beer was a safer alternative. According to legend he ended a plague when he submerged his crucifix into a brew kettle and persuaded people to drink only beer from that "blessed" kettle. He is reported to have said "From man's sweat and God's love, beer came into the world".
There are multiple versions of a tale about his providing beer to the people. The story is told of porters moving his body after building a tomb for his relics/bones for people to visit. A tired porter overcome with heat uttered a plea to God for a cool refreshing beer. No sooner had this request been made than copious amounts of cold beer shot out of the casket they carried, drenching all and quenching their thirst.
There is a Houston microbrewery called http://www.saintarnold.com/, which at one time had a page on the "Legend of St. Arnold" which echoed this thing from "Beer History", but they have removed the page...
However, at [2] I find real evidence of the existence of "Arnold of Metz" or "Arnulf of Metz", but no mention of brewers. That lead me to [3], which also has no mention of brewers. There is one more site linked from DMOZ / Google directory on St. Arnulf (well two actually, but one is dead), also no mention of brewery.
Hence, my theory is that St. Arnold of Metz as patron of brewers is an invention of the St. Arnold microbrewery that got picked up in various corners of the Internet. I am going to edit the offending article accordingly. Mpolo 19:14, Oct 1, 2004 (UTC)
How can this article be condensed in size?
St. Arnoldus is generally considered as the patron saint of the brewers in Belgium. In the 15th century, the brewers of Bruges build their chapel for St. Aernout, who later became known as St. Arnoldus. Since the brewers became rich in most cities, more and more chapels appeared in churches in Flanders. St Aernout of Tiegem, who was the son of a brewer from Oudenaarde, miraculously filled up a beer tank when workers got thirsty and ran out of beer. A complete book is dedicated to this saint: Smits, Arnold. Arnold van Tiegem ridder-bisschop. Uitgeverij Lannoo. ISBN 90-209-6059-8. Svendebie 02:49, 27 December 2005 (UTC)

Saint Patrick - patron saint of engineers?[edit]

Catholic Online http://www.catholic.org/ only lists him as the parton saint of Ireland.
I went to school at the University of Missouri at Rolla in the '70s, and the claim that Patrick was the patron saint was justified as follows:
Saint Patrick drove the snakes from Ireland.
A snake is just a big worm.
Therefore, Patrick invented the worm drive.
Worm drives are used by engineers.
Thus, Patrick is their patron saint.

wow, christian reasoning is... interesting --93.192.63.65 (talk) 14:23, 7 August 2011 (UTC)

St. prefix[edit]

Is there any reason that some saints have the St./Saint prefix in the list here, whilst others don't? e.g. St. George, Saint Lawrence, David of Wales. Surely there should be some consistency here, even if the page names themselves aren't consistent. Bobbis 6 July 2005 17:25 (UTC)

edward the confessor?[edit]

the anglo saxon king is on the list, is he really a saint

Of course, Edward the Confessor is a saint. His shrine is in Westminster Abbey. He was the original patron saint of England. He is also patron of kings and difficult marriages.

also itd be better if explanations were given on the respective pages as to why they are the patron saint of whatever, for example theres one and it just says pretty much randomly and he is the saint of fighting communism, why? ( that may be joseph )

Patron Saint of those who mourn?[edit]

I thought there was one but I didn't find it on the list.

Known Saints[edit]

The assertion that St Christopher was removed from the calendar of Saints by the Catholic Church because there isn't enough room to fit all into a 365 day year is arrant nonsense. Many saints share the same days. I have edited accordingly. Ulysses54 07:46, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

Capitalize Saint in Title?[edit]

It seems to me that the term "saint" in this article's title should be capitalized. I believe I am correct in thinking that "saint" refers to any believer, while "Saint" refers to those who have been granted Sainthood by the church. Is there a consensus for a move? If no consensus seems to develop, I'll be bold, and move it myself. --YbborTalk 02:30, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

It's been three days. I'm moving it. --YbborTalk 00:20, 29 June 2007 (UTC)
Upon further research, I'm changing my mind. My Mirriam-Webster dictionary leaves the term uncapitalized. --YbborTalk 00:38, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

making more neutral (help please)[edit]

I would like to suggest that the section called "criticism" be renamed and that the not neutral language such as "serious blasphemy" be changed. Surely blasphemy without qualification is enough. I tried to do this, but was told to stop and do not feel very confident to try again. Could someone else find a way to do it that would not be vandalism. Thank you. (64.231.11.47 (talk) 02:09, 27 June 2008 (UTC)).

The fact is, criticism does exist regardless of who is right. Basically, that's what the section is saying. There is some good in the rewording from the above editor, but I do not think the title change is warranted. --Blanchardb-MeMyEarsMyMouth-timed 02:23, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

Well, you're right about making it more neutral. Right now only 3 sentences in the Criticism section are explaining the protestant view of it, while 10 of the sentences are pro-Catholic defense arguments. That is obviously biased. It's just utterly amazing you would call for more neutrality. What would be good for you? 0 sentences criticizing it?

Not to mention calling Protestant views a "misconception" as if it were fact. Just because YOUR group views it as a misconception does not mean it IS a misconception. In fact, according to WIKIPEDIA itself, it IS NOT a misconception that Catholics pray to saints. Saying you don't pray directly to them is the silliest thing I've heard. Praying is "COMMUNICATION to any dead spirit". It'd be like saying when I asked a friend for help, I didn't talk to him. Here on Wikipedia, "Prayer is the act of attempting to communicate with a deity or spirit for the purpose of worshipping, requesting guidance, requesting assistance, confessing sins, as an act of reparation or to express one's thoughts and emotions."

So, first you ARE attempting to communicate with a spirit. Second, you are requesting assistance (intercession). Third, this is being done as an act of reparation. This "criticism" section does not lay out a real case for WHY the protestants truly believe it is blasphemy, etc. For instance, the Seventh Day Adventists, a 100 million strong church, labels it blasphemy mainly because of the First Commandment of the bible, which says "though shalt not make a graven image of anything in heaven above or earth below, and you shall not bow to it." (sorry for paraphrasing) of which the Catholic church is doing both. It is a big commercial interest around the world, promoted by the Church even (which often sells them itself), to sell images of the Saints, which people will pray to (as I laid out earlier the definition of prayer as Wikipedia defines it). Or that the main reason Protestants consider the "Patron saints" thing pagan-like, is because Pagans do the same thing: Have a "dead" person/deity/hero who has some "power" over an area of life, like God of Rain, God of Soldiers, God of Farming. Just change God to "Patron Saint". It's really the same. Compare the Roman Gods, they have One supreme being, then many "not supreme" but spiritual beings you ask for help in many areas. It fulfills that base pagan desire to have a spiritual being they can talk to for their area of their life, rather than only one Supreme being. It's the same reason why Islam prevents people from making even a positive image of Mohammad, because it may lead to idolatry, and distract from worshiping God.

Perhaps Muslim criticism should also be added in. There is very little neutrality; it is 10 sentences pro-catholic view, 3 against, and that's WITHIN the "criticism" section mind you! There is no need for a rebuttal there anyways! You can create your own rebuttal section, like "Catholic response" if you want! --76.185.188.224 (talk) 01:41, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

It doesn't have to be neutral. It's an encyclopedia page about Patron Saints. Not a debate board.--Nikoz78 (talk) 17:10, 23 October 2009 (UTC)

Becoming a patron saint?[edit]

The main reason I had for visiting this page was that I was curious about how a particular saint or saints becomes the patron of something, and there isn't much, if anything, of an answer to that here. I can see how historically patronage may have been bestowed (iconography, legend, birthplace and so on) in some cases; how does it happen nowadays, if it does still happen? Do the various branches of Christianity always agree on assignments? Is, indeed, the concept of patronage official doctrine?

I'm sorry if I seem to be asking for information rather than contributing it, but I think that asking questions of the knowledgeable is a good way to get information, and hope that any answers to my questions may be useful material for the page. Kay Dekker (talk) 18:48, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

No information![edit]

This article tells me absolutely nothing about what a patron saint actually IS.

At least have a dictionary definition or something, the average user isn't going to plug around a handful of specialized pages. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 38.109.194.97 (talk) 18:44, 11 March 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for pointing this out. The article was vandalised a while back and needed a bit of restoration work to put the definition back. Man vyi (talk) 07:52, 12 March 2010 (UTC)